808 and 909 JOINT BUG REPORT: notes and fx CUT across patter

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TOTAL
Posts: 337
Joined: 22:28, 28 March 2007

808 and 909 JOINT BUG REPORT: notes and fx CUT across patter

Post by TOTAL »

Concerns the so called "sustain bug" existing in
MC-808 and MC-909. But not in MC-505 or Fantom.

THE BUG

during playback, both in PATTERN mode and in SONG mode

changing to a new pattern results in cutting all the sounds from the previous pattern, including note sustain and release, Reverb, Delay.



THE CONSEQUENCE

Switching between patterns does not necessarily mean changing to a new song or music motif, but can be also needed to progress from one part of the song to another.

The "SUSTAIN BUG" annaturally separates each pattern from another. The resulting effect may not be as striking in the onboard demo songs, where the consecutive demo patterns are musically independent from one another.

IS THIS REALLY TO BE CONSIDERED A BUG?

The lack of possibility of smooth transformation of sound across the pattern boundaries is commonly considered as anti-musical.
Evidence?
1. Search the Groove Zone to see how MANY TIMES the issue is mentioned, with very strong negative emotions, as apparent bug.

2. Listen to any genre of music - contemporary or classical - reverbs and delays are NOT cut across song parts.




IS THIS A BUG OR JUST A DERIVATIVE OF THE ARCHITECTURE OF (i) ROLAND INSTRUMENTS OR (ii) GROOVEBOXES OR (iii) specifically 909 AND 808 GROOVEBOXES?

i) Fantom Line does NOT have this bug - confirmed by Fantom users

ii) MC-505 itself being a Roland groovebox does NOT have this bug, while MC-307, MC-909 and MC-808 do.

iii) Definitely not. That both 808 and 909 are CAPABLE of smooth switching between patterns without cutting Reverb or Delay or EVEN NOTES, can be proven by pressing a cursor key during playback. Abrupt change is not accompanied by "SUSTAIN CUTTING". It can be concluded that the machines ARE technically capable of and even prepared for allowing smooth transitions.


It is worth mentioning that while being different models and having some different parameters these machines share the principles of operation: same sequencer functionality, COSM processors, all are pattern based.



REQUEST TO ROLAND TEAM

1. The MC-808 and 909 users hereby officially request that the so called SUSTAIN BUG be treated as a priority issue and fixed in the nearest update.

2. Should Roland Experts consider what we consider a BUG - a feature, a compromise could be achieved by allowing what we ask for as an OPTION in the system menu.



TO ROLAND USERS

There is no doubt that RolandCLAN being informal, but officially recommended Roland instrument forum is scanned by Roland developers, quality control team and PR, as The Source of users' feedback.

It is also a place which potential customers undoubtedly visit in order to make sure if the product they consider buying will meet their expectations.


I'm convinced that for the above reasons RolandCLAN Forum is the best channel for communicating our doubts to The Roland Corporation.



That's why I encourage that we join our forces to finally have our otherwise fantastic grooveboxes operate as professional LOOP BASED music workstations.




There are some good reasons to trust we CAN get what we need:



1. there is no practical advantage of the bug, no music genre requires such behaviour of the instrument
2. the issue does not exist in other Roland machines, newer AND older, or any other grooveboxes
3. the number of voices for this fix proves that musicians consider the bug as a very serious issue

and

4. Public opinion MATTERS




WHAT SHALL WE DO?

1. Express here. Let's not criticise Roland.

2. Report the bug to your local Roland Representative (and pls confirm here)

3. Be minimalistic. There obviously might be many things to improve in MCs, but the more we ask for the lesser our impact. Let's keep this thread digression-free.

4. Artemio, you are aware of the demand for the fix aren't you? Could you please make this thread a sticky?

Peace

T
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Artemiy
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Re: 808 and 909 JOINT BUG REPORT: notes and fx CUT across pa

Post by Artemiy »

I am afraid that this is not a bug, this is how it works. When switching patterns, 808 and 909 loads the patches from the new pattern. On Fantoms there is a "patch remain" function, do you know if it is there on these MCs as well?
PipoTheClown
Posts: 16
Joined: 20:55, 8 June 2007

MC... bug

Post by PipoTheClown »

I just checked the 808 manual online. It says there is a patch remain and mute remain function. I don't see how this will fix the problem, however.

I don't own an mc-808 (yet :-). Could somebody check this?
It's on page 121 of the manual.

btw: It's really of no importance wheter it is a bug or an unwanted feature or something else. A lot of people would be
happy if Roland would fix this "thing"
TOTAL
Posts: 337
Joined: 22:28, 28 March 2007

Re: 808 and 909 JOINT BUG REPORT: notes and fx CUT across pa

Post by TOTAL »

Yes, there is Patch Remain option in 808. And it should be ON.
Audible consequence: changing patch while pressed key and pressing another one does not result in interrupting the sustained note.



THE BUG explained

1. in SYSTEM menu set Patch Remain option to ON and confirm with WRITE.
2. go to an empty pattern.
3. Select some delay effect for MFX1
4. make it long : MFX1 C1 and C2 faders all UP
5. select part 1
6. set the PART OUT ASSIGNMENT to MFX1
7. press WRITE and confirm (For clarity let's call this Pattern A)
8. Press WRITE AGAIN, but this time write to a neighbouring pattern (Let's call it Pattern B).
9. Get back to Pattern A
10. Record a note in Part A (set the Recording length to 1 bar to save time)
11. press play to make sure the note plays
12. STOP - the note echo should persist.


Now you are prepared to compare to do the tests.



SCENARIO 1
PATTERN MODE
abrupt change of pattern form A to B with use of cursor key

Result: the echo remains (as it should)


SCENARIO 2
PATTERN MODE
pattern change with JOG dial, confirmed with ENTER key

Result: echo is CUT (undesirable)



SCENARIO 3
SONG MODE
pattern change from A to B is to be preprogrammed (ref. Manual)

Result: echo is CUT (undesirable)



CONCLUSIONS
1. Pattern changes result in cutting all the sounds and delays, also reverbs
2. technically the machine is not doomed to this limitation - see SCENARIO 1. Unless the fix is not provided.


I hope this is a clear illustration of the problem.
dr_boehm
Posts: 700
Joined: 11:05, 11 November 2006
Location: Bochum, Germany

Re: 808 and 909 JOINT BUG REPORT: notes and fx CUT across pa

Post by dr_boehm »

Hi folks,

even with patch remain = on effects are cutted off when the sequencer goes to the next song step. The effects are not cutted off when you change the patterns manualy. Tested with a very long delay and short notes triggering the dalay at the start of the pattern. First pattern triggered a C and second pattern triggered a G so you shoud hear an interval. But in song mode you hear always only a single note :-(

Ciao, Dirk.
TOTAL
Posts: 337
Joined: 22:28, 28 March 2007

PROGRESS: countries involved

Post by TOTAL »

808
Germany
Poland called
Hungary mailed, asked for further detail, detail sent, promised to check by himself and write back soon

909
USA called, futher detail needed



Join us. Let's make it worldwide.
hawkens_
Posts: 84
Joined: 13:39, 29 November 2006
Location: Bratislava, Slovak republic

Re: 808 and 909 JOINT BUG REPORT: notes and fx CUT across pa

Post by hawkens_ »

TOTAL: regarding to Patch remain, you just must choose one of otions, you can not both. You can have cutted notes, or you can have not cutted notes, but not both at once, since it's logical oposite state.

Partially you can fix your problem by importing / creating whole song into one long Pattern. One Pattern became whole song - I have used to use my MC909 this way. Well, it's not a perfect solution, you will loose ability to skipp into another part of song as easy as swithing pattern, however you can still go forwards and backwards by buttons.
TOTAL
Posts: 337
Joined: 22:28, 28 March 2007

Re: 808 and 909 JOINT BUG REPORT: notes and fx CUT across pa

Post by TOTAL »

"regarding to Patch remain, you just must choose one of otions, you can not both. You can have cutted notes, or you can have not cutted notes, but not both at once"

Definitely, uncut notes and uncut effects (like delay and reverb) ACROSS pattern boundaries is THE missing option, or rather functionality. I am not even mentioning Patch Remain being OFF.



As for your workaround
Placing all you can pack in one pattern and staying there throughout the "song" IS some way out. But you know the consequences, don't you?

If not, here are some examples. A full blown intro may require different musical motives, and several layers. Ending may not necassarily have to be repetition of intro plus something added/removed. Musically, not all parts of a song have to have both fx the same, but the MFX2 delay could be common, while MFX 1 would change from Superfilter to distortion, to Phaser.

You don't have this freedom. 505 users do. Fantom users do. This thread is a BUG report.


Besides, there is another workaround described elsewhere, again, with undesirable consequence (lose beat consistency, unable to use SONG mode).

Hawkens, this "feature" in some models is and in some is not. Nobody complains about 505's or Fantoms NOT having this "feature", while many people complain about this "feature" being there in 307, 909, 808.

To avoid reading further rants and "shame on you Roland"s and gain much more I propose that we make take serious steps to make The Corporation aware of the demand for a Hotfix.


Peace

T
hawkens_
Posts: 84
Joined: 13:39, 29 November 2006
Location: Bratislava, Slovak republic

Re: 808 and 909 JOINT BUG REPORT: notes and fx CUT across pa

Post by hawkens_ »

Well, we can call Roland for fix. I remeber there was similar problem on 909: when you swap pattern, midi controllers skipped back to default vaules, so as soon as you change any controller value, it was re-set on next pattern, even there was no further change on new pattern. Later on Roland fixed this by new OS.

So if you persuade Roland there are lots of users worry about this problem, they would fix it as well.
panicmerchant
Posts: 20
Joined: 23:11, 20 May 2007

Re: 808 and 909 JOINT BUG REPORT: notes and fx CUT across pa

Post by panicmerchant »

Ah Hello everyone. Scotland calling. This problem is a comlete disaster and renders the box practically useless so thank you TOTAL for pointing this out. I just recently got the box and was happily working on seperate patterns as I got to know it. I am a groovebox player of some experience and have had many machines, The workaround suggestions are far from practical. WHAT ON EARTH ARE ROLAND THINKING ABOUT? GET THIS SORTED NOW! WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO IF WE ARE USING A LONG ECHO (WHICH IN CASE YOU ARE NOT AWARE HAPPENS QUITE A LOT IN ELECTRONIC MUSIC) AND WANT TO CHANGE PATTERNS WITHOUT SOUNDING COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS? 'SORRY FOLKS THE SOUND YOU WERE ENJOYING IS ABOUT TO STOP DEAD IN THE WATER- PLEASE USE YOUR IMAGINATION AND PRETEND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN-WHAT IS THE ANSWER ROLAND? PLEASE TELL US ALL. IT'S NOT ASKING TOO MUCH IS IT? A SIMPLE E-MAIL WOULD DO THE TRICK. I am glad I bought this box recently for I may well return it to the shop If nothing is to be done- It is not fit for the purpose. I say again- this bug seriously compromises this box as an instrument of any standing. Anyone who says otherwise has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. If it is not sorted the 808 will be history soon.
TOTAL
Posts: 337
Joined: 22:28, 28 March 2007

Re: 808 and 909 JOINT BUG REPORT: notes and fx CUT across pa

Post by TOTAL »

hawkens, panicmerchant

Please do call your local Roland Support and confirm it here so that we know the progress we make.
TOTAL
Posts: 337
Joined: 22:28, 28 March 2007

news

Post by TOTAL »

I have received an e-mail from Roland East Europe (located in Hungary).

Mr Janos Varga asks for more detailed description of the "working method".

And he says it will take TIME.


My interpretation is that something has MOVED. The answer was instant. I think we can be optimistic.

Nevertheless, as hawkens says, the more of us, the greater our chance.


T
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DJFLEX-mk2
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*Patches/Effects do not sustain, they “cut out” when switchi

Post by DJFLEX-mk2 »

Image "FIX THIS ROBOT BUG" !!!!

I have the Roland MC-909 with new OS v1.23. Since March 30, 2007

**Issue: "Patches/Effects do not sustain, they “cut out” when switching to different patterns. There's is no sustain in Song Mode, resulting in a noticeable audio gapping between patterns."**

When I bought this unit in AUG 2006 with OS 1.20, I notice this issue at first. But I thought it was no big deal at first. I love this unit still, I know with these unit you just have to figure out ways to work around it, so at the time I had the old OS v1.20 then later updated to OS v1.22, with same issue. I just Transfer my completed Song an put it though [Sony Sound Forge 5 or 6], then Used [Sony Acid Pro 5 or 6] to do other remixes or edit with using there built in effects or delay features in the software.... "but the whole idea of using the groovebox is to get away from work arounds and software's. But now that I got to know the features on the Roland MC-909 more & more. I wanted to be able to use this machine for live session with my [Technic 1200 Turntables]... So I went on to learned more of this unit features over time... I Re-read the manual over and over.... I just waited over time. For anohter new updated OS. Then In time I updated my Roland MC-909 to OS v1.23 which the RPS features were fixed... But not the Sustain yet. Pattern and Song mode still cuts out???? hummmmmm?

Then around last Week June 8, 2007 I called Roland US - Product Support [Synths/Sound Modules/Groove Products: 1-323-890-3745]....Spoke to a Ryan Walter, he was helpful....he asked me what OS version I had, 'I said that I got v1.23 '?? He said the latest version was v1.20 on the Web site: http://www.RolandUS.com ?? I was like Well I got this version from the main World Roland Corporation Web Site: http://www.Roland.com and it works fine - it fixed the [RPS feature] error's, and made the Sound on this unit Sound better. And it sounds louder also. He went on to say that each Roland Corporation has there own franchises, I asked "But are you not the same Company"? He said yes we are, but they each run there own support differently. I said oh ok....I said to him my main question - was When will Roland Address the issue with the 'no SUSTAIN bug'?..... He then pointed out did you try to play with the "MFX 1 & MFX 2 features"....I said yes to him...... I explain to him my issue. Told him my machine is not broke... I'm aware of Roland making there machine with few bugs and then fixing some of there issue later on in time. I have the Roland MC-303 [with updated ROM chip v1.03] and Roland MC-505 [with updated OS v1.07] and told him these machine does not have Gaps or no Sustain cut off on the Pattern or in Song mode or it cuts off switching to the next tracks..... When I'm using like a String patch in the Arpeggiator mode or just plain JV Strings type for example. The Sound cuts off when I go to the next pattern. He was helpful, and point out to check and play with the MFX 1 & MFX 2? Because he has not heard of this issue on the Roland MC-909 ?.... And he was honest to say he does not know when will they make a new OS update. But he did suggests to check and play around with the MFX 1 & MFX 2 setting...making sure that the next pattern matches. He did say - to send him my tracks to [Roland Corp. US, PO BOX 910921, Los Angeles, CA 90091] So he can see this issue more and hear it clearly what I was explaining to him. That last suggestion, I was not to sure about me sending him my tracks. But I did take his pointer - to try to explorer more the MFX 1 & MFX 2 features on the MC-909. I know alot of people are having this sort of problem, but a Friend of mine in [Brooklyn, NY] that has the Same machine Roland MC-909 said he sometimes gets Cut off on some of his pattern and sometimes he does not. We both know its not the limitation of the [64-voice polyphony] because thats enough for us. We do not bomb our machine with over used Sounds at one time. I guess it does depend on how well your arranging your tracks or the programing? Cause I did try to do what the Product Support Specialist said for me to - "check again my Delays & Effects in the MFX 1 & MFX 2 setting's...and to make sure there matching into the next track....but I feel like sometimes I like to use the Raw Sound instead of using to much Delay & Effect's on every pattern's. Maybe I'm not the only one with this problem. But I hope it Does get fixed soon or a new Roland MC-909 OS does comes out to address this issue. I'm happy with this machine cause with me using my Roland MC-303 & Roland MC-505 going back and fourth with them on my Roland MC-909 I'm able to create custom sounds and patterns or loops, and place it back into the Roland MC-909 as a Sample - and just be creative.

Well if other people have this sort of the same issue or you know some other ways to work around this cause I already tryed in the past to make one long pattern - looped into the Roland MC-909, but its now starting to bug me...... Get it " BUG ME "! Hit me up on this. Peace to everyone.

Signing off from DJFLEX-mk2

my home page is:
http://www.myspace.com/djflexmk2

"PLANET ROCK! ~ yO gEt FuNkY"
TOTAL
Posts: 337
Joined: 22:28, 28 March 2007

sticky?

Post by TOTAL »

Artemio

Hopefully, you no longer have doubts the problem exists, and is a priority issue.

Would you please make this peaceful thread a sticky?


Thanks

T
bassman
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Re: 808 and 909 JOINT BUG REPORT: notes and fx CUT across pa

Post by bassman »

Hello TOTAL,

I'll stick this one up. Thanks for pursuing this.

Bassman
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