SC+digital piano+korg nanokontrol?

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voodooblues
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Joined: 11:38, 21 January 2011

Re: SC+digital piano+korg nanokontrol?

Post by voodooblues »

Hey again Paulo, forgive me for going off the topic, but...

I borrowed a Edirol PCR m50 midi keybord to see how would it work for my needs. I can't figure out how to set the controller to do the one thing I would like to do , maybe you could help me out?

I'd like to use SC in performance mode, having several patches playing togehter, all on Channel 1. For example: Part 1 = Piano (Ch.1) --- Part 2 = Strings (Ch. 1) ---- Part 3 = Brasses (Ch. 1) etc.... So all patches would use channel 1, but still I would like to use faders to control their volume levels, balance between the piano and strings for example... So far I only managed to set up 8 faders to all control the volume levels on channel 1. Every parts volume level was changed, and I only want one fader to control one part..

How could I set Fader 1 to control volume level of Part 1 and Fader2 to control Part 2 etc... ?

Propably simple but I can't figure it out. I tried googling some midi guides, but it's kinda hard to find the right keywords plus that I'm having hard time understanding any midi related text...
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PauloF
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Re: SC+digital piano+korg nanokontrol?

Post by PauloF »

voodooblues wrote: ...I'd like to use SC in performance mode, having several patches playing togehter, all on Channel 1. For example: Part 1 = Piano (Ch.1) --- Part 2 = Strings (Ch. 1) ---- Part 3 = Brasses (Ch. 1) etc.... So all patches would use channel 1, but still I would like to use faders to control their volume levels, balance between the piano and strings for example... So far I only managed to set up 8 faders to all control the volume levels on channel 1. Every parts volume level was changed, and I only want one fader to control one part..

How could I set Fader 1 to control volume level of Part 1 and Fader2 to control Part 2 etc... ?
...
Well... In Performance mode, having several Parts being controlled using the same MIDI channel you can control the MIDI channel volume, and that will affect all the Parts using that MIDI channel.
The easiest way to do that is by controlling the Part volumes from the EDITOR MIXER Screen, but in that case you need the computer.

I use the principle you want, and both my controllers are set in a way that each Fader controls a specific MIDI channel Volume, 1-8+10 controlled by the A-Pro 800, and 9, 11-16, controlled by the PCR-500.

The trick is that I use a MIDI channel for each group of sounds I want along my 3x Synths, and all my Performances (Fantom Xa, SonicCell) and V-Synth XT's Patches are organized in this way
Example:
  • MIDI Channel 1= SYNTHS/ARPs/DRUMS (V-Synth XT)
    MIDI Channel 2= BASSES (Fantom Xa and V-Synth XT)
    MIDI Channel 3= STRINGS/PADS (Fantom Xa, SonicCell and V-Synth XT)
    MIDI Channel 4= AC.GUITARS (Fantom Xa and SC)
    MIDI Channel 5= ORGANS (Fantom Xa and SC)
    MIDI Channel 6= DIST.GUITARS (Fantom Xa and SC)
    MIDI Channel 7= AC.PIANOS/EL.PIANOS (Fantom Xa, SC and V-Synth XT)
    MIDI Channel 8= SYNTHS (Fantom Xa, SonicCell and V-Synth XT)
    MIDI Channel 9= ALL D-50 PATCHES [VC-1 Module on V-Synth XT]
    MIDI Channel 10= DRUMS (Fantom Xa, SC and DR-880)
    MIDI Channel 11= PADS/STRINGS (Fantom Xa, SonicCell and V-Synth XT)
    MIDI Channel 12= V-Synth PATCH MIDI Control Channel
    MIDI Channel 13= Fantom PATCH MIDI Control Channel
    MIDI Channel 14= SonicCell PATCH MIDI Control Channel
    MIDI Channel 15= Fantom PERFORMANCE MIDI Control Channel
    MIDI Channel 16= SonicCell PERFORMANCE MIDI Control Channel
The relative Part Volumes are pre-adjusted and saved with the Performances/patches, but if they need to be adjusted, it is done manually on the Fantom and from the Editor's MIX screen for the SonicCell. But I can tell you that I hardly do it...

I'm using a MIX of CC MIDI messages and System Exclusive Messages, from the A-800 Pro and PCR-500 to control the Performance/Patch changes on the 3 Synths.

On top of this, having 4 Keyboards, 3 of them capable of controlling 2x MIDI channels at the same time, it is relatively easy to control everything (6x MIDI Channels at once).

The 4th keyboard (Fantom Xa) is mainly used as a MIDI sound source, except for playing specific Xa Performances and BASS on the lower end. I don't use the Xa to control anything.

I hope this helps
voodooblues
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Joined: 11:38, 21 January 2011

Re: SC+digital piano+korg nanokontrol?

Post by voodooblues »

I'm not sure , but I don't think that would work for my situation. I would only use one keyboard for playing, and therefore every patch I use would have to be set to listen MIDI Channel 1.

My goal is that I would only have to create 1-5 performances for different styles of music. I would set a patch for every Part of a performance.

MIDI Channel 1 (Part 1) = Piano Patch
MIDI Channel 1 (Part 2) = Pad Patch
MIDI Channel 1 (Part 3) = String Patch

etc...

Most of the time I would use only 1 or 2 parts together (they'd play unisono as all are controlled by one keyboard and listen the same MIDI Channel) but if I felt like it I could open faders for all Parts and create a huge unisono layer.
Or if I have GrandPiano on Part 1 and Strings on Part 2 I could use just the piano for verse of a song and when the chorus comes I bring it up a notch by adding the strings in the mix by opening the Fader for Part 2.

I have used SC on 3 gigs and every time I find out that the brasses are too loud or the strings are too quiet :P That's why I hope I could do something about it in real time. The SC's own main volume wheel is so tiny and in a very hard place to use real time!

I've been studying MIDI and SC alot in the few last days and I think that what I want to do isn't possible, or even if it was, it's not something that can be done with my skills ;) I'll be going to the library today and lend a book about MIDI in finnish. Trying to understand MIDI related texts in english sure isn't easy.

Your answer helped me to understand MIDI better, and see what can be done with it - even if it did not solve my problem. Thank you, you've been very helpful. I wish I can someday do something for you.
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PauloF
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Re: SC+digital piano+korg nanokontrol?

Post by PauloF »

Thanks ! But don't be obliged to retribute. I'm trying to Help as any other guy here. That's why Rolandclan exists for anyway, to Help each other out and exchange ideas/ experiences, so we all learn.
;-)

There is another way to Control part volumes independently, without having to use The Part Mixer...
By The use of dedicated Sysex Messages (System Exclusive), whose description you can find in The SCs owners manual, in The MIDI section.
That's rather complicated to set up but let me see if I can reproduce it with my Controller. Then its just a matter of using those Sysex Messages with whatever Controller you decide to
I won't promise that I will manage to do it, but I'll try.

I'm also thinking about a different approach, but I need to confirm a few details first... bare with me

Cheers
Paulo
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PauloF
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Re: SC+digital piano+korg nanokontrol?

Post by PauloF »

...While I look for a solution, just a quick thing on the P85...
Just looked at the P85 Data sheet, and you can actually use its dual function to control two MIDI channels at the same time, the only restriction being: whatever MIDI channel you choose for Voice1, the Voice 2 Data will be transmitted on the next greater channel number relative to the specified channel. Example:
Voice 1 set as MIDI channel 1, Voice 2 = MIDI Channel 2
Voice 1 set as MIDI channel 7, Voice 2 = MIDI Channel 8

Did you know that ?

That increases your possibilities a little bit, isn't it ? :-)
voodooblues
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Joined: 11:38, 21 January 2011

Re: SC+digital piano+korg nanokontrol?

Post by voodooblues »

There is another way to Control part volumes independently, without having to use The Part Mixer... By The use of dedicated Sysex Messages (System Exclusive), whose description you can find in The SCs owners manual, in The MIDI section.
That's rather complicated to set up but let me see if I can reproduce it with my Controller. Then its just a matter of using those Sysex Messages with whatever Controller you decide to
I won't promise that I will manage to do it, but I'll try.
I've read the MIDI section of the SC's manual, but learned very little :) My local library didn't have any MIDI guide, but I ordered one, it arrived today - maybe i'll have time to pick it up tomorrow! Then I can try again and see if understand the manual ;)
I'm also thinking about a different approach, but I need to confirm a few details first... bare with me
I think it is you who has to bare with me!

... As I said I don't understand much about MIDI, but I've been thinking that would "OMNI mode" (or whatever it's called) solve the problem?

1. I set up
Part 1 = Piano patch - MIDI Channel 1
Part 2 = Strings patch - MIDI channel 2

2. I use OMNI mode somehow...?

3. I play YamahaP85 and both patches (Part 1+Part 2) would play together even if they're on different MIDI Channels..

I don't know if that makes any sense!

PS. No, I didn't know Yamaha can controll 2 channels, thanks for the tip! Now if I can find some controller with faders I could use 2 patches the way I wished to - am I right?

Thanks again
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PauloF
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Re: SC+digital piano+korg nanokontrol?

Post by PauloF »

voodooblues wrote: I've read the MIDI section of the SC's manual, but learned very little :) My local library didn't have any MIDI guide, but I ordered one, it arrived today - maybe i'll have time to pick it up tomorrow! Then I can try again and see if understand the manual ;)
Regarding MIDI, that is a really very simple (and old) concept. I don't know the level of your knowledge, but I suggest you read the following document, made by Roland.
An Introduction to MIDI
voodooblues wrote: ... As I said I don't understand much about MIDI, but I've been thinking that would "OMNI mode" (or whatever it's called) solve the problem?

1. I set up
Part 1 = Piano patch - MIDI Channel 1
Part 2 = Strings patch - MIDI channel 2

2. I use OMNI mode somehow...?

3. I play YamahaP85 and both patches (Part 1+Part 2) would play together even if they're on different MIDI Channels..

I don't know if that makes any sense!
OMNI mode (when enabled on the Keyboard) would not solve your problem as would make the keyboard to send the same information from its basic channel (let's say, channel 1) to all SC channels at the same time, and controlling one's volume will control all the remaining in the same way as if they were all channel 1.

Using the Dual function on the P85, will allow you to have Channel1 to control, let's say PIANO and channel 2 to control, let's say STRINGS on your SC, and that will be native (you won't need OMNI at all).
voodooblues wrote: PS. No, I didn't know Yamaha can controll 2 channels, thanks for the tip! Now if I can find some controller with faders I could use 2 patches the way I wished to - am I right?
That's right, P85 will play the notes in both channels (example 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8, etc), and the MIDI Controller (provided it has the Merge function), would control the Channel Volumes

;-)
Take care
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