RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Forum for RD-700GX, RD-700NX and RD-800
Balisani
Posts: 11
Joined: 10:28, 3 December 2009

RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by Balisani »

Hi,

I'm new here, but a long time Roland user (starting with the SH-101 in 1984) and life time fan. My latest purchase is, as you might have guessed, an RD700NX.

I'll spare you my thoughts (for now) because at this point I would just like to be able to tweak the sounds to decay naturally, if not supernaturally (somebody shoot the marketing people).

As anyone reading this who owns or has played a piano or a Rhodes knows, the loudness/amplitude of the notes decreases as one goes up the keyboard, and segues from the middle to the upper register.

I may not be searching correctly in the manual, or am looking for the wrong term (Breaking Point?), but if anyone here has a clue, or would kindly point me in the right direction, I would be most appreciative and grateful : )

Peace,

Balisani
kenchan
Posts: 1876
Joined: 23:46, 22 December 2008

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by kenchan »

you mean key follow?
Balisani
Posts: 11
Joined: 10:28, 3 December 2009

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by Balisani »

Hi kenchan, thanks for your reply, but I'm not sure what key follow is, sorry : (

What I mean is the perceived loudness of the notes in the upper register is much greater than natural. Whether on a piano or Rhodes, as you go up the octaves, the amplitude or loudness of each note is progressively attenuated (you can test this by playing the top note, and lowest note on a piano for instance: the loudness of the highest note (and shortest string) is far less than that of the lowest note.

On a piano this is remediated by doubling then tripling the strings (vs the lower registers), on a Rhodes, by moving the tine pickup accordingly.

On my RD700NX, the loudness of the upper register does not 'decay' - it almost sounds as if it gets louder (it's certainly shrilling to hear, in a solo context), but that's just a perception thing.

Note that I specify in a solo context; the effect is far less pronounced, at times perhaps desirable, when playing in a band context (or over a CD/Jamey Abersold play along, etc). In such a context, it helps the soloing cut through comfortably. Be that as it may, I am desperately trying to find the feature/function (I call it Break Point, because my introduction to the concept dates back to my DX-7 programming days) that would allow me to set a progressive volume/amplitude cut off point either on the entire instrument, or patch per patch, if need be.

Does that makes sense, and does it sound like Key Follow to you?
kenchan
Posts: 1876
Joined: 23:46, 22 December 2008

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by kenchan »

key follow is a synth terminology to adjust tonal, amplitude, decay, and many other characteristics of the sound based on pitch (key tone/key range). for instance decay and amplitude changes are made with this feature.

if you made EQ changes to your piano or ep patch, the tone will naturally sound louder as you play up and down the scale. for instance if you increased gain for 2500Hz or so to make the tone brighter, the piano will get pretty annoying loud at the top 2-3 octaves. in order to remedy this, once you setup your piano sound, try using the onboard 3band compressor. this is a very powerful feature on the RD700NX where you can really balance the tone and output level throughout the key range. what i do is i set the parameter and turn the dial all the way ccw but leave the effect turned on. i can play the entire keyrange without blowing out my speakers or my ears for that matter on the upper registers. hahaha. :p

my outboard compressor RARELY attenuates the signal as most of the work is done on the RD700NX's compressor.
Balisani
Posts: 11
Joined: 10:28, 3 December 2009

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by Balisani »

Thanks for the enlightenment kenchan; further, you describe my issue exactly, and identify the culprit.

I did create my own EP sounds (the stock sounds are crap imho) and EQed the high end generously to get that 'bell' sound. I hadn't thought of that, thank you for pointing it out.

Assuming your advice does not involve the front panel compressor button (which only has a depth setting, and which, in any position that I turn the knob does nothing near what you are describing) I will dig into the manual to look for and play with the 3-band compressor settings and see if I can get it to work.

A quick question though, and pardon my ignorance again, but what does "turn the dial all the way ccw" mean, exactly, please?
kenchan
Posts: 1876
Joined: 23:46, 22 December 2008

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by kenchan »

yes, the compressor is quite capable of smoothing out the output without making the tone sound squashed...the beauty of 3band compressors.

if i remember tonight, i will jot down my 3band compressor settings and post it up so you can use as reference.

ccw = counter clockwise. so the depth dial would be set to zero. Even when it is set to zero, the compressor is still very active. when you turn up the dial cw (clockwise) you loose dynamics... everything will sound loud.

in other news... woot! got my 3pedal for my RD. (RPU3)
Balisani
Posts: 11
Joined: 10:28, 3 December 2009

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by Balisani »

Thank you for offering to jot down your settings; they will be most appreciated : ) I took a look earlier at the compressor settings and would not know how to best approach it. For starters, I'm confused by Type (though I assume it's a global compressor envelope or setting, but I'm unsure which would be best for my purpose).

Great that you got the RPU3! It's probably overkill for me (I'm a Jazz composer, mostly), but let me know if it might offer musical benefits other than for the classical repertoire.
kenchan
Posts: 1876
Joined: 23:46, 22 December 2008

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by kenchan »

ok, here is my compressor setting. I use it for piano's and ep's and basically for everything. :)
as i mentioned earlier, just turn it ON and leave the dial to zero or full ccw position.

TYPE: USER
Split Freq L: 80Hz
Split Freq H: 630Hz
Depth: Original

LOW
Level: 0
Attack: 0ms
Release: 87ms
Threshold: -19dB
Ratio: 1:2.0

MID
Level: 0
Attack: 0ms
Release: 87ms
Threshold: -20dB
Ratio: 1:INF

HIGH
Level: 0ms
Attack: 2ms
Release: 83ms
Threshold: -18dB
Ratio: 1:1.6
kenchan
Posts: 1876
Joined: 23:46, 22 December 2008

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by kenchan »

btw, i use no EQ on the panel EQ (bypass). i only use EQ's in the patch. :)

RPU3- very cool. im trying it out right now. it's a tad smaller than my CP1's triple pedal. spring rate is imho, just right. i use the soft and sostenudo pedals for controlling efx parameter on/off for ep's and non-piano instruments. it's very cool. even if you're not a pianist (I am not, im just a keyboardist) you can very much use the other 2 pedals for these efx controlling features. i recommend it. :)
Balisani
Posts: 11
Joined: 10:28, 3 December 2009

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by Balisani »

Thank you very, very much kenchan! I will try those out tonight (well, maybe tomorrow am, it's 1:25am here) and write back. Thanks also for the bit about bypassing the panel EQ; I will also try that.

I didn't know you could use the other pedals to control FX; I've learned a lot from you starting with just one question. I hope I can repay you some day! Again, thanks : )
kenchan
Posts: 1876
Joined: 23:46, 22 December 2008

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by kenchan »

No problem, balisani. Have fun with your new board! :)
Balisani
Posts: 11
Joined: 10:28, 3 December 2009

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by Balisani »

Thanks to your help and settings, kenchan, I'm much closer to a natural progressive amplitude decay (except for the last octave...).

The upper register has been tamed, within reason, and my EP patch is far more playable as a result. I have no idea (yet) how to use EQ at the patch level with the panel EQ bypassed (they seem to be linked for me). I'll dig further in the manual and see if I can make sense of it.

I'm still surprised one has to jump through Compressor hoops to effect this, and that there is no dedicated setting to emulate this, particularly from an instrument touted as Super Natural ; )

I suppose I'll take this up with Roland; Ziv, my sales guy in L.A. might be able to help get the question across.

I'll let you know herein if I hear back anything helpful or conclusive; in the meantime, you have my sincere thanks and gratitude : )
kenchan
Posts: 1876
Joined: 23:46, 22 December 2008

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by kenchan »

you're welcome. :)

well, the same phenomenon happens on real rhodes so it's not unusual. :)

another approach you can do is split the keyboard so that the very high registers where you get the annoying note will play another patch with lower output volume setting. i do this for my ScarbeeMk1 first because it can't play full 88 keys. i trigger 2 patches one for very low register and one for the highest register and find the notes where the two different instruments split naturally.

in fact on my CP1's Rhodes patch i do the same thing... the lower registers play a 73' Mk1 and mid and upper registers play a 75'.

mmmm... i got you thinking now huh? hahaha. now see if you can make your 2 (or more) patches to smooth out the transition.
Balisani
Posts: 11
Joined: 10:28, 3 December 2009

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by Balisani »

That's an excellent idea, kenchan, thanks ; ) I just have to learn how to do splits on the RD (I'm not using it for live performance so the thought never crossed my mind). It will have to wait though as I'm on the road for the next few weeks (and the RD stayed home). I will let you know in June, I guess, unless my schedule's reshuffled at the last minute and I get to spend a few days at home before going back out.

Again, many thanks! : )
kenchan
Posts: 1876
Joined: 23:46, 22 December 2008

Re: RD700NX natural fade curve in upper register?

Post by kenchan »

You are very welcome! :)
Post Reply