Fantom G No Sound Thread

[SRUT, BUT...]

Art:

Generally I do agree with what you've just said,...


(...this is the place where the BUT has to come...)


...but APPLE really is the worst choice of comparison, as Apple, (well yes true, has less resources than Microsoft), is the prime example for perfect communication processes / PR / public presentations etc.

I doubt Apple would have made such a mistake to present some great product in public and let so much time pass until decent info come around.

As long as the G is as G-reat as I expect it to be, the only hard thing is the WAITING I have to suffer. Hopefully Roland will make it a great product!

[SRUT, BUT...]

oops, double post!

sorry

[Artemiy]

SRUT, Apple has upset people with delays as well. iPhone and Leopard are examples. People had to wait 6 to 9 months after the announcements. But such things do not make their products worse, it's just people want it all, and want it NOW

[Diametro]

Art, I don't understand your response in relation to my comments ...

Basically what I said is that having one or two PR people saying Roland is hard at work on the Fantom-G isn't going to change anything about its development.

I'd rather that money be spent on developing the product rather than placating some antsy people ...

I DON'T CARE HOW LONG IT TAKES TO COME TO MARKET ...

[Jimknopf]

Artemio, sorry, but here we have different views.

From my view you just don't want to accept it, that Apple (just as *one* example), despite being small and having casual delay problems like any other company, is *light* *years* ahead of companies like Roland in communicating their product lines, and even Korg and Yamaha are better at user communication in the eyes of many. (No, I'm no Korg/Yamaha agent, but sometimes begin to feel here like Charlie Chaplin and many others in the USA during the McCarthy era.)

Does this notion of a Roland lack of communicative skill, which can be discussed, take anything away from e.g. finding the new G's usability great? Or does it make sense to mix up things and request general user thankfulness as a replacement for questions in a concrete discussion?

All this camp thinking doesn't lead anywhere from my view. I try to understand that you and others have such strong bonds to Roland and Roland customers, that it hurts you if the company is critisized anywhere. But you can't exclude that by definition. In the end camp thinking would mean dividing the world strictly into kind of Roland friends sliding on their thankful knees on one side, and mean enemies, who dare to utter any form of critcial feedback, on the other side. That doesn't help discussing things in an open way. I don't name critical things to make you or anyone here angry. I often found good help here and sometimes tried to help others. I like this forum. May well be I'm a G owner soon. But I still think it's one of the purposes of this forum to discuss things in an open way. Or am I sadly mistaken?

And at one other point I'm sorry to contradict as well:
I do *not* *at* *all* have to run a company fifty years before I can wonder what they are doing with their "Fantom expierience" site or in their kind of user communication. I just have to do my own job in a proper way and be ready for critical questions there as well, just as *anybody* *anywhere* should be able to answer or think about critical feedback. You can bet that I am open to critical questions myself. It's simple as that...

@Diametro: you talk as if they were at point *zero*, having nothing but some specs themselves, at a point in time just a bit more than one month before announced delivery! You don't seriously expect me to buy that???

To me it is more than obvious that they could say *a* *lot* if they wished to do so. And concerning communication I am not a little bit interested in the cheap forms of PR gags you seem to think of, calming people instead of clearing things. It may come as a surprise, but I talk of real communicative ability. Else a hammer would be sufficient to silence people who annoyingly dare to ask.

[Artemiy]

Diametro,

I'd rather that money be spent on developing the product rather than placating some antsy people

And I say again, do you think that if people already work like horses, they will work even more if you pay them more? I think not, that's what I said. And a small, tightly-connected team of developers means you cannot also hire more people, it will only make it worse as I explained (if you add more people, you need to add people who will manage those people, and so on, the final product will be delayed and the results won't be as good).

[Jimknopf]

Artemio and Diamtro:
you shouldn't struggle, you have the same view

Just concentrate on bashing my view side by side ))

[Artemiy]

Jim, you are right to a good degree as well. But I can repeat: when you're alone you think for yourself, it's easy. But when you have 1000 employees it's not.

BTW, with the Fantom-G information. Roland did what they wanted to do and what they could do. They have posted as much info as was feasible at the moment. What's so wrong with that? What if they really want to show everything when it is 100% ready?

Look at Spectrasonics. They have just announced the STEAM engine, and Omnisphere. Omnisphere will ship somewhere this fall, that is at least 9 months from the announcement. They have posted even less technical specs and even general info than Roland did for the G. So what? They are doing what they want to. I say it again, go start your company and do as you want (for example, have a look at Metasonix - LOL ).

Okay, I need some sleep now.

[Diametro]

No, Jim. I actually agree with many of your points ...

... and now for a silly kitty pic ...

[GregC]

I like this type of discussion, BTW. It is related to ' company culture ' and trying to better understand their decisions and why they operate and communicate in a particular manner.

BTW, I don't agree w/Arts comparisons to Spectrasonics(please, this is a 13 yr old, small software/sample library co led by the very respected Eric Pershing). I don't agree with the Apple OS comparison, either
( Leopard delayed 4 months, OMG, hardly the end of the world)

Jim makes some points- "It would have to apply to Korg and Yamaha and many others as well. But Japanese companies show a wide range of communicative behaviour, just like any others worldwide. "

Jim, this is true. But its more valid to compare Roland to its 'peer group ' instead of Nikon, Canon.

Have you spent time in Japan ? I have, about 2 weeks. In addition have worked in Japanese business for quite a while, at Sony and more recently at a global software co. I have the greatest respect for our Japanese cousins and their business approach. I think this is a fair generalization- when they need to put the pedal to the medal, they will
completely internalize that activity until that ' job ' is done.

Good point-"So meanwhile I think that it's rather the more or less conservative view in the top management of each brand itself, carrying on certain behaviours of certain persons and groups in that company (also coloured by the background culture)"

I differ with you here, as noted above- "There are many Japanese (and international) companies which communicate with customers in a much more accessible and open way than Roland Japan does."

This is good, I know we can expound on this. Maybe next post: " But some have understood that in certain areas of economy the producer-customer relationship means *much* more in fast internet times than just the exchange of products/money or just the the little hype surrounding a short new product presentation."

MS was/is an extremely arrogant co. They only recently 'changed' 4-5 years ago. They had to be literally bullied into it: "Microsoft tried a certain way of non-communication about their software interfaces. And it took their top managment - living like in an autonomous parallel universe - literally years and very high penalty fees to understand that this way would be and stay totally unacceptable to the whole of the European Union."

I 100% agree "What I try to say is: in todays world you don't just buy and sell. You act in a more and more important communcative network with very fast feedback (internet), and if you deny your challenge resulting from this fact it will not hurt others, but only yourself. This counts for companies all the more.
My advice to Roland is: better wake up fast and make up your own forum web pages visited by Roland reps who are able to communicate. This is something other than these user pages, but certanly required just as much. And it will be worth each cent invested into it. "

This is great stuff, some of us are pushing Roland to 'open up' the communication. Be more responsive, lessen the ' mechanical hype and spin ' Don't leave customers hang in the wind with little information'. Be more forthcoming.

I also demand that as a customer. Roland will be a better co if they listen to customers ( what a shocking simple statement). I think most of are reasonable customers.

[Artemiy]

BTW, I don't agree w/Arts comparisons to Spectrasonics(please, this is a 13 yr old, small software/sample library co led by the very respected Eric Pershing). I don't agree with the Apple OS comparison, either
( Leopard delayed 4 months, OMG, hardly the end of the world)

I am just saying that part of people are always pissed, and these highly-respected companies which release amazing products also make such people whine and whine over the net for months until the products get released. It's very similar with Roland. I did not mean Roland is perfect in the way they do their thing, no one is, but they do not deserve the most part of the bashing we hear once in a while.

Also, many say they do not listen to their customers. Well, maybe they do not listen to you and me, but they listen to some others. They just cannot listen to everyone and their brother, it's simply impossible to fulfill everyone's wishes. Finally, they have their own visions for what their instruments should be (after all THEY are making them, right?), and then there are lots of factors as to what they can actually fit into the board for a given price.

Heck, why do you guys think it's all so simple? I once wanted to start making my own hardware, a little digital-analog hybrid effect processor, and after I realized how many effort I'd need to put in and how many things I need to take into account at each step, I had to postpone this idea for until I have a few tens of thousands of dollars to invest in it.

[Jimknopf]

I propose to end the principal discussion about this point (quality or missing quality of Roland customer comminucation) here. My point of view is quite clear from what I said, as is yours. It is obvious that we just can agree to disgree very much here. I guess it makes no sense repeating that with more arguments.

Just let's continue with the main 'no sounds' topic, one and a half months before announced delivery (shipping) date.

[switch to interview mode]
Mr. Artemio Pavlov, what are the most important sounds you hope to see/hear in the G?

And now don't answer: "Anything they offer..."

[Artemiy]

Mr. Artemio Pavlov, what are the most important sounds you hope to see/hear in the G?

As I am a sound designer myself, I am interested only in raw waveforms. Since the G's seem to include lots of vintage synth waveforms from SRX-07, that would be fantastic, because I have always found those waveforms great.

In terms of patches, according to what I have heard so far, there will really be a vast selection of sounds, it looked like more than double the Fantom-X repertoire. But, again, let's wait for the final release.

[madAhorn]

Has anyone mentioned this yet?

There are quite a few duplicate sample types from Fantom X, SRX-07, SRX-03 for example.
If you take the best of those 3 or replace them with better ones, it could save ROM space.

So, I am hoping that the 256 ROM is full of only the best samples and covers all of the genre we expect.

[The Audacity Works]

Also, many say they do not listen to their customers. Well, maybe they do not listen to you and me, but they listen to some others. They just cannot listen to everyone and their brother, it's simply impossible to fulfill everyone's wishes.

Every once in a while, someone will post something similar to—"I requested this feature on this one thread at four in the morning almost six months ago, and Roland hasn't added it! They don't listen to their customers!"

If Roland's like any other company, they have a slew of beta testers, most of whom are professional, touring, minor-celebrity musicians who already use Roland gear. Unless there's HUGE drama exploding all over the net (like on HC when the OASYS's price was first announced), MI companies rarely put much weight in a handful of geeks hanging out in some forum. Let's face it, we're largely a bunch of whining nerds. The vast majority of the workstation market is now young hip hop dudes who can't pronounce "ask" much less understand MIDI or basic signal flow—and middle-aged technophobes who can't bring themselves to sequence on a computer, neither of whom hang out in online discussion forums. Yes, of course there are other groups, but they're in the minority.

Heck, why do you guys think it's all so simple? I once wanted to start making my own hardware, a little digital-analog hybrid effect processor, and after I realized how many effort I'd need to put in and how many things I need to take into account at each step, I had to postpone this idea for until I have a few tens of thousands of dollars to invest in it.

A few tens of thousands of dollars? Dang, Artemio, you must've been doing all the work yourself! I'm trying to get a line of products out, and my first box will cost $400,000 to $600,000 for a half-dozen prototypes (R&D, dirt-poor engineer salaries, programming, affordable Chinese manufacturing, legal fees, bare-bones marketing and management, first NAMM show, etc.). All for a piece of gear that'll sell for $399.

And if all goes well, and the thing actually makes it to market, I DREAD having to curb my tongue for all the whining, clueless idiots trolling my forum.

Spectrasonics was an interesting mention. Didn't Eric Persing work at Roland for years?