Fantom G sequencer

[fash]

That's essentially the question I was asking. The Audacity obviously thinks that this forum is for experts only. Being up your own backside must be fun for some people...

[The Audacity Works]

That's essentially the question I was asking. The Audacity obviously thinks that this forum is for experts only. Being up your own backside must be fun for some people...

WHOA. There's a HUGE difference between asking a newbie question (which is 100% cool) to bitching and whining about some Fantom feature that... isn't even an issue if you know fundamental concepts of MIDI or product design.

GOOD: "Wait, can Hybrids run on biofuel like animal oils?"
BAD: "This is utterly ridiculous! The new Ford Hybrid is stupid because it doesn't run on animal oils!"

Lets say tracks 10 thru 20 are a drum kit called super drums(kick snare hihat etc..). So on each one of those tracks is that one sound source (the super drums kit). If i go to adjust the level of the different midi tracks, wont that adjust the over all Kit volume.?? Meaning if I turn down the hi hat on track 15 wont that just lower ALL the tracks volumes(10 thru 20). Or will I have to adjust the actual velocities. it it lets you control individual volumes of a kit just by lowering the mixer for that channel... that would be hot

Hi Doug,

That indeed would be cool, but that's not the way MIDI works. There's no such thing as per-track volume for MIDI tracks, as MIDI isn't sound. You're controlling the volume of a part, and if multiple tracks are controlling the same part, you can't adjust volume independently without adjusting velocity (which is not the same thing as volume, either in concept or execution).

It's important to understand that the most powerful hardware sequencer on the planet (MV-8000/8800) works the same way. Hell, the most powerful sequencers period (Logic and Cubase) work that way. That's just MIDI.

The only trick one could possibly pull off would be per track velocity compensation faders, which is certainly doable, but doesn't often give you the desired result, nor does it really fit within the confines of a MIDI environment. If anything, it would confuse newbies further.

All is not lost, however. The point of separate MIDI tracks per part is not volume adjustment; it's in editing and arrangement. Keeping your kicks, snares, hihats, crashes, and percussion on separate tracks is hugely beneficial when laying your various parts across the song's timeline. The ability to quickly hard-quantize kicks and snares but leave the hihats with their natural timing fluctuations is crucial. Sure, you can kinda do this with the Fantom by restricting the note range that gets destructively quantized, but it needlessly slows the song creation process down.

Even though there's not really a thing as per-track MIDI volume, there is, however, per-track MIDI mute (as the note data telling the individual drums to play is being silenced). This is also a big deal.

And it's great to be able to sequence and time-adjust the left and right hands of, say, a string section independently.

128 is, admittedly, a bit of overkill for a machine that only has 34 individual parts—internal, ARX, and external. The one question I couldn't get answered at NAMM is whether or not the USB MIDI OUT could be separate channels from the MIDI OUT. I suspect not, as there didn't seem to be a way to assign a track to a part (like there is in the MV). Looks like the part itself becomes the destination mechanism, and since there are only 16 external parts, I might be out of luck.

Still, it can't be stressed enough that if you're not already planning on sequencing the Fantom-G from a computer, 128 MIDI tracks to control 34 parts is a big, BIG deal. The Kurzweils have 32 tracks to control 16 parts, but for the most part, all the other workstations are 16/16—including the Fantom X and even the $8000 OASYS.

[Doug Crazy]

Thanks Audacity... I didnt think it would be able to do that..but i figured I would ask. You are correct because working with the MV8000 I realized that the sequencer on that machine is a BEAST !!.. Only software can compare with it. I am getting logic 8 also within a month... I want to mix both worlds (hardware/software) to get the most enjoyment

[The Audacity Works]

Thanks Audacity... I didnt think it would be able to do that..but i figured I would ask. You are correct because working with the MV8000 I realized that the sequencer on that machine is a BEAST !!.. Only software can compare with it. I am getting logic 8 also within a month... I want to mix both worlds (hardware/software) to get the most enjoyment

Cool. If Logic ends up your primary sequencing environment, the Fantom-G's sequencer pretty much becomes a non-issue.

The only other thing I wish the G had (other than assignment from the track, not the part) is the MV-8x00's realtime quantize engine. It's SICK. Looks like the G's quantizing is all destructive, either while recording, or as a track edit.

I'm also enamored by the Fantom/MV's velocity tweaks within its excellent groove templates. Logic's groove templates can be created by the user (cool!), but they ignore velocity (crap!). That's the only thing I'd use the Fantom/MV's sequencer for.

You're gonna love Logic!

[Jimknopf]

Good explanation.

Practically, in the end it all comes down to 2 main usability advantages:

a) being able to edit drum instruments separately (you will hardly ever want your bass on 5 parts)

b) being able to "park" passages of midi data on muted tracks. This happens all the time in everyday midi programming: you have played a passage, but it's not yet exactly as you want it. But you don't yet want to delete it, nor decide right away, if you enter into editing it to get it perfect, or just play it in once more. In the second case you move your last take to a muted track, where it will stay in perfect place within the project for possible later use. Then you play in the new version on your original track and have all the time you need to decide which version is the best take for editing, or if you take some data from one part to the other.

This way you can easily run into situations where you have 3-4 alternate takes on muted tracks. If that happens on 8 parts, you certainly don't need 128 tracks. But add some drum tracks and you could have around 40-50 tracks in use.

It is much more comfortable to work this way than having to do it all in 16 tracks. This has been one of the reasons why so far heavier editing has been done by most in software DAWs and not on workstation.
With the G and a mouse it's getting easier on a workstations as well.

[The Audacity Works]

Agreed. I've gotten into quite a few situations in Logic where 128+ tracks were controlling 30 some-odd parts, but that's when doing big orchestral pieces or scoring for film.

It's also common, when building multisamples or sampled kits, to lay out a ton of hits, sound effects, or loops across the same part. A lot of times it's one sound per key. It'd be great to dedicate a track to each sample/loop. And then name the track after the sample so it's easy to know what you're looking at.

Also keep in mind that MIDI notes can be used to trigger different functions from within Ableton Live (or key commands in Logic). I envision creating a template song in the Fantom-G with a track containing, say, start/stop or record/overdub messages. Or using the 16 external parts to control Apple's MainStage.

The Line 6 Echo Pro makes a fantastic looper, and its start/stop/record/reverse/overdub/down octave functions can be controlled via MIDI notes. If one were to create a bunch of looping regions in the fantom G (or RPS sequences), they could control the recording and playback of the singer's vocals or guitar riffs live from the velocity pads. Record the first chorus with one note message, and then play it back during the second chorus while the singer harmonizes live.

[fash]

''WHOA. There's a HUGE difference between asking a newbie question (which is 100% cool) to bitching and whining about some Fantom feature that... isn't even an issue if you know fundamental concepts of MIDI or product design.''

GOOD: "Wait, can Hybrids run on biofuel like animal oils?"
BAD: "This is utterly ridiculous! The new Ford Hybrid is stupid because it doesn't run on animal oils!"

Bitching? Oh I see, you're american. It figures. Say no more. I understand. You have my sympathy.

[The Audacity Works]

Bitching? Oh I see, you're american. It figures. Say no more. I understand. You have my sympathy.

Wow, thanks!

Wait... That doesn't even make sense.

[Doug Crazy]

I LOVE when other countries talk bad about America.... just lets me know that we are still the best. The best is ALWAYS hated.

[Jimknopf]

Ever heard a country talk?

Must have been after a loud rehearsal without earplugs

[Zephyer]

"you can't adjust volume independently without adjusting velocity"

Hi The Audacity Works and Fantomized Forum new guy here. each rhythm tone on my XP-80 and on the Fantoms has it's own indepent tone level. If roland wants to I think they should be able to set it up so any of the 128 tracks on the new Fantom-G with notes using channel 10 on them adjust the tone level of just the note/notes (Keys) on that track. and not the overall volume of the rhythm kit.

[Zephyer]

Hey guys you can also use your fantom like this. Make a patch and set each tone (you can have up to 4 tones in a patch) to it's own key range. Between C-1 and G9 (that's 128 keys to use) for example have a piano set to key ranges from C-1 to A1 strings set from Bd1 to Bd3 a flute set from B3 to B5 and so on all the way up to G9. To play the tones out of the range of your keyboard just use the octave shift. And don't forget each tone has its own coarse tune so you can shift a tone up or down up to 4 octaves if the pitch is to high or low. When your done setting up your patch you can use it on up to 4 tracks just record your patch on a track only using one of your split tones per track. If you did this for all 16 internal midi channels you could have up to 64 sounds you just have to put a little work into it. now you have somthing to use all those tracks for and if you run low on Polyphony sample your tracks as audio. LOVE THAT FANTOM.

[Arjan]

Doug,

I LOVE when other countries talk bad about America.... just lets me know that we are still the best. The best is ALWAYS hated.

You are discussing a Japanese machine on a forum created by a Ukrainian.

Fash,

Grow up.

L8r,
Arjan

[Doug Crazy]

??????

[V-CeeOh]

each rhythm tone on my XP-80 and on the Fantoms has it's own indepent tone level

Yes but that's not the same thing. You can't have independent volume MIDI messages (CC7) in the same MIDI channel. You can achieve the "independent tone level" mixing with System Exclusive messages but in this case you would need "dedicated" tracks for the Rhythm part thus making those very same tracks useless for any other part. The other way around is to assign Rhythm Kits for more then part 10 but this also reduces the available parts for other sounds.