Fantom G sequencer

[BigBrotherMotown]

Thats one of the things I LIKED about the Fantom as opposed to my XP80.....

I could assign rhythm kits to OTHER tracks, THUS enabling me to have complete independent control for each sound. I could route individual sounds (kick,hat,snare) to MFX and have differens amounts of send for chorus and reverb....

I would use a LOT of tracks but it provided MORE flexibility in the end.....


It's my PREFERRED way of doing things!

[Zephyer]

"you would need "dedicated" tracks for the Rhythm part thus making those very same tracks useless for any other part."

Hi V-CeeOh You do a lot of great work on this forum thanks for that.

I'm not too sure what you mean. What I mean is say you put a bass drum and only notes from that bass drum (say key C2) on track1 the Fantom-G then detects that track has a note from channel 10 on it. Now it sets the track to use the bass drums tone level and not part tens volume level this way we can now put a snare on track2 and hi hat on track3 and adjust just the volume of that sound. However if track1 has a sound from channel 1 on it say a piano then it's set up to use channel ones Volume. (Normal) This is just something Roland could add if they wanted to its just a matter of how they set up there software for the Fantom-G. I understand as you have said its not the same as using volume MIDI message CC7 (the effect will be the same) so it will only be useful on the fantoms sequencer and will make it hard (or won't work at all) to control each drum tracks volume/pan using external MIDI software or hardware. But if you really want to you can make a software controller (I made one) to adjust the tone level/pan of each key in a Rhythm part using System Exclusive messages or you could go to the Fantoms Rhythm edit and change the tone level of the sounds in use while you record just an idea.

Thanks for your reply

[The Audacity Works]

What I mean is say you put a bass drum and only notes from that bass drum (say key C2) on track1 the Fantom-G then detects that track has a note from channel 10 on it. Now it sets the track to use the bass drums tone level and not part tens volume level this way we can now put a snare on track2 and hi hat on track3 and adjust just the volume of that sound. However if track1 has a sound from channel 1 on it say a piano then it's set up to use channel ones Volume. (Normal) This is just something Roland could add if they wanted to its just a matter of how they set up there software for the Fantom-G. I understand as you have said its not the same as using volume MIDI message CC7 so it will only be useful on the fantoms sequencer and will make it hard (or wont work at all) to control each drum tracks volume/pan using external MIDI software or hardware.

Hmmm... Is it doable? Possibly. I apologize for sounding cynical, but a few issues/problems arise:

1. How would the Fantom-G know what's on the track? Would it have to scan the track's MIDI data during every pass? Would it scan it when loading the song? What if another note gets recorded (even accidentally)? Suddenly the fader controls the entire part (or doesn't work at all)? Even if the .SVQ file contained all that information in a buffer, what if one loads a Standard MIDI File?

2. What if another track contains the same note on the same channel but is set to a different level?

3. What if the track gets transposed? Suddenly the note's changed, possibly to that of another track.

4. How would the fader control, say, a key/note with more than one tone—especially if the tones are preset at different levels? Does it raise the relative volume of the tones or simply increase both by the same amount until the loudest tone hits 128?

5. If a kick level (SysEx) and snare level (SysEx) are both recorded to two separate tracks, what happens if the snare track is deleted and one suddenly wants to control the entire part via CC#07? Do they have to delete the SysEx data and re-automate the track?

6. Would people be willing to deal with the extra SysEx data clogging up the MIDI stream and messing with timing?

7. Would people (especially MIDI newbies) be willing to deal with wrapping their head around the new feature, which basically undermines the current implementation of every sequencer on the planet?

Instead, I'd suggest the following:

From the MIXER or PART view screens, press an F-key labeled "Rhythm Mix" or something similar. A keyboard appears and the 8 faders now control the 8 highlighted keys' tones. Another two F-keys transpose the highlighted range up and down by 8 notes. Still clunky, and #4 above still applies, but we're closer.

I think for clarity—and sanity's—sake, volume should always be limited to parts and tones, and never to MIDI tracks. There's a reason Logic and Cubase limit us in the same manner.

But if you really want to you can make a software controller (I made one) to adjust the tone/pan of each key in a Rhythm part using System Exclusive messages or you could go to the Fantoms Rhythm edit and change the tone level of the sounds in use while you record just an idea.

Very cool!

[Zephyer]

Hi the Audacity Works thanks for the work and insight you bring to this forum

"Hmmm... Is it doable? Possibly. I apologize for sounding cynical, but a few issues/problems arise:"

I tend to agree with most of your comments and this time is the same. I came up with some of those issues as well though they could be worked out . Recording System Exclusive messages is just something I wanted to throw at you guys. As to say if we go beyond the norm we can find a way to make this work. (adjusting the volume of each tone in a rhythm part and not the whole part) I have done this and with good results.

And your right when you say.

"I think for clarity—and sanity's—sake, volume should always be limited to parts and tones, and never to MIDI tracks."

I tend to fight against limts but some such as this one help and not hurt the workflow. But if someone really feels they want per tone Rhythm part volume adjustments it can be done it just takes a bit more work.

Thanks The Audacity Works for your comments very well thought out as always.

"Instead, I'd suggest the following:

From the MIXER or PART view screens, press an F-key labeled "Rhythm Mix" or something similar. A keyboard appears and the 8 faders now control the 8 highlighted keys' tones. Another two F-keys transpose the highlighted range up and down by 8 notes. Still clunky, and #4 above still applies, but we're closer."

Good idea maybe this is something for Roland to think on.

[Zenzilla]

Inspiring thread...

I am reminded of how Sequential Circuits did this with DrumTraks.

They assigned each drum part to a different note on the the same MIDI channel.

Nothing fancy = easy to edit and efficient.


Zenzilla

I need a new sig.

[Zephyer]

Here's my two-cent on the overall flow of this thread. 128 midi tracks can't hurt the workflow it will only help so it gets a GREAT BIG FAT plus in my book. Everything from all the takes we can have. (Allowing us to pick the best one). To the drums, patterns and arpeggios per track. (For easy mixing, editing and viewing) To having tracks for System Exclusive messages. (For the Fantoms use and for use with external sources)

And if your like me and tend to stretch limits you can do per track split patch tone recordings. (That’s up to 64 sounds 60 if you can't change part 10 from Rhythm) which is good for if you only use or just have a Fantom-G and want more sounds or if your on the road and want to travel light.

Not to mention the compatibility it can now have with Software such as Sonar, Logic and Cubase. Now I can have my Fantom's tracks setup like they are on Sonar. So when I take my Fantom-G on the road and feel I want to work on the song I saved on sonar it will be easy to update my sonar project. I just add the new tracks or edits I made to sonar or I can sync the fantom to sonar’s midi clock.

Also we don't know all the unknown goodies Roland my have put in that we can use the tracks for. When all is said and done I loved the Fantom-X the G will only be better and more when it comes to tracks is better then less at least I think so.

[Zephyer]

Hello Zenzilla

"I am reminded of how Sequential Circuits did this with Drum Tracks.

They assigned each drum part to a different note on the same MIDI channel."

Nothing fancy = easy to edit and efficient."

I think you may have misunderstood what The Audacity Works and I were talking about. (Per tone rhythm part volume adjustments and what are practical or impractical ways of doing this on the Fantom-G)

The rhythm part on the fantoms (and most Workstations) is already set up as you have said. Each drum part is assigned to it's own note on the same MIDI channel.

The problem with this is (and you very well may know this) for example. Say we put a bass drum on track1 a snare on track2 and hi-hats on track3 and then turn down the volume (That's only if Roland gave midi tracks volume control) to track1. It would also turn down the volume to track2 and three because they all use the same channel. (10)

The Audacity Works and I just gave some workarounds and ways to fix this issue. Out of them I like The Audacity Works idea and would like for Roland to do something like this.

"From the MIXER or PART view screens, press an F-key labeled "Rhythm Mix" or something similar. A keyboard appears and the 8 faders now control the 8 highlighted keys' tones. Another two F-keys transpose the highlighted range up and down by 8 notes."

And I gave some workarounds if Roland dose not.

1. Adjust the tone level in rhythm edit.

2. Use System Exclusive messages from a software controller (I my pass one around if you guys feel like you need one after I get a Fantom-G) to adjust the volume of the tone. One could also have it adjust the cutoff, resonance, pan, etc. (I made one for my XP-80 to adjust all parts of the Rhythm tone)

Or did I misunderstand you?