And concerning RPS: Remember that all the great keyboarders like Herbie Hancock, Joe Zawinul, Geroge Dunke, Jan Hammer etc. got easily by without even knowing what RPS might be.
What??? I dont want to be limited by someone else's choice use of how they use an instrument. You are knocking RPS without really fully using it. I look up to those guys but surely a feature's usefulness is not determined by whether or not Herbie Hancock uses it. Of course we should all work on our theory and harmonies. But techniques we use to extract sounds is part of musicianship. Good pitch bending techniques is also part of this and yet many great jazz guys cant or dont use pitch bending.
For the record, Jimknopf, I do not select patches with RPS. You suggest that the new live mode eliminates most of sound switching issues so you wont need RPS. That is just part of what RPS can do for you. I used to do that but I use RPS for a lot more than that now. You can get sounds to morph in time, create splits and automate anything you can think of on the Fantom.
Sure, you get many more effects now so you can bring in patches with corresponding PFX. I find this interesting, though. I recall many posts comparing the Fantom's 3 to the Motif's 8 and many people pointed out that you can program great patches and work around this limitation. For example, Artemiy talks in the Tweakbook on how to tweak and sample. Now, after all this Roland is implying that effects is where its at. I guess we should have bought the Motifs until Roland got their act together. Jimlnopf, I agree with Quinnx that it changes the X's functionality to the extreme. You've got to try it.
Ok, I got that out.....
Triggering RPS on the keyboard
like Herbie Hancock, Joe Zawinul, Geroge Dunke, Jan Hammer e
However they didnt have a potential Studio inside there keyboard now did they?
So they didn't have to deal with all that proliferate.
They didn't have the potential to achieve a lot more from within their
keyboard and they did what they did within that spectrum.
If you see Rps as a tool for triggering notes your on the ground level.
Let us know when you reach the 99th floor.
So they didn't have to deal with all that proliferate.
They didn't have the potential to achieve a lot more from within their
keyboard and they did what they did within that spectrum.
If you see Rps as a tool for triggering notes your on the ground level.
Let us know when you reach the 99th floor.
Re: Triggering RPS on the keyboard
Quinxx and howardS
you seem to think these guys are still playing piano or a ProphetV.
I would like to remind you that Herbie Hancock played a Korg Oasys 88 besides a Fazioli Grand on his last electric tour, and George Duke is well known for using the newest gear and playing techiques all his life: as keyboarder and producer.
I don't have anything against someone making heavy use of RPS for triggering phrases, sound morphing, effect shaping or whatever.
I only mind if someone would try to tell me that I or others had *any* ever so small duty to use it or be regarded as technically backward.
That's pure nonsense.
I support you in demanding RPS on keys, but I will frankly laugh at any effort telling me which technical means I should use for what. I just know better, what is useful for me, than any of you does ...
you seem to think these guys are still playing piano or a ProphetV.
I would like to remind you that Herbie Hancock played a Korg Oasys 88 besides a Fazioli Grand on his last electric tour, and George Duke is well known for using the newest gear and playing techiques all his life: as keyboarder and producer.
I don't have anything against someone making heavy use of RPS for triggering phrases, sound morphing, effect shaping or whatever.
I only mind if someone would try to tell me that I or others had *any* ever so small duty to use it or be regarded as technically backward.
That's pure nonsense.
I support you in demanding RPS on keys, but I will frankly laugh at any effort telling me which technical means I should use for what. I just know better, what is useful for me, than any of you does ...
Re: Triggering RPS on the keyboard
Jimknopf:
No ones telling you how to create or which method to use.
lets put it this way..
Imagine you have been trying to produce a sound in a certain way and in theory it would be amazing if only you could figure out a way of making that sound exist in real time.
Now imagine you have at your finger tips a method which would achieve this but you don't know this because you have not discovered the potential of a seemingly un-interesting function of your kit.
You then go and purchase the latest and greatest and rid yourself of
something that had what you where looking for but you just did not look hard enough
This is kinda what the Rps function is to you..
uninteresting with a potential you have not or will not ever discover.
Where as the rest of us who have eyes wide open do! realize its value.
No ones telling you how to create or which method to use.
lets put it this way..
Imagine you have been trying to produce a sound in a certain way and in theory it would be amazing if only you could figure out a way of making that sound exist in real time.
Now imagine you have at your finger tips a method which would achieve this but you don't know this because you have not discovered the potential of a seemingly un-interesting function of your kit.
You then go and purchase the latest and greatest and rid yourself of
something that had what you where looking for but you just did not look hard enough
This is kinda what the Rps function is to you..
uninteresting with a potential you have not or will not ever discover.
Where as the rest of us who have eyes wide open do! realize its value.
Re: Triggering RPS on the keyboard
Mozart didn't have electricity and Beethoven was deaf, but still they made good music. Still I prefer to have electricity, my hearing and RPS and multisampling... To the barricades!!!
Re: Triggering RPS on the keyboard
Quinxx,
I am quite open minded and if I learn something new about RPS - though I am not as clueless as you seem to think - I will certainly do. But I guess I would not have missed it if it would work sonic wonders. Perhaps you give me some sound samples of something I will utterly miss after leaving the X? Not meant sarcastic: I'm really interested in what you mean...
The real mess is, we would not even have to discuss that if the G just had kept all the major functionailty of the X.
Now that I have to make my decision, it's clearly the G I opt for, That was the rhetorical question asked in this thread, and I aswered it and stand 100% to my answer, no matter what the potential of RPS triggered by keys may be. That does not take anything from your or howardS's other evaluation.
I am quite open minded and if I learn something new about RPS - though I am not as clueless as you seem to think - I will certainly do. But I guess I would not have missed it if it would work sonic wonders. Perhaps you give me some sound samples of something I will utterly miss after leaving the X? Not meant sarcastic: I'm really interested in what you mean...
The real mess is, we would not even have to discuss that if the G just had kept all the major functionailty of the X.
Now that I have to make my decision, it's clearly the G I opt for, That was the rhetorical question asked in this thread, and I aswered it and stand 100% to my answer, no matter what the potential of RPS triggered by keys may be. That does not take anything from your or howardS's other evaluation.
Re: Triggering RPS on the keyboard
Jimknopf, I appreciate your response. Neither Quinnx nor I am suggesting that you are clueless. I recall readings posts from you and clearly you are making an informed decision that makes sense to you. I think you misunderstand our excitement over RPS and what it can do for the user and think it is criticism. It is not. I know Quinnx and others probably wonder why I havent used multisampling and would scream at me to "jump in, the water's fine" but I just havent had the time to get there...yet.
Let me give you one example of RPS usage that I would lose if I get the G. Say you are comping in your left hand or playing a pad (sound, not the pads) and playing a lead in the right. You could switch or add a part to that right hand, add in some delay, perhaps adjust some volume at just the right moment in your solo without having to take your hand off and hit a pad. There is no break in time. Perhaps you think you could move you hand fast enough. Ok, well, what if in the right hand there is another tone which plays during the decay of the notes that you are holding and you don't want to take your hand off the keyboard to hit the pad. The answer for me is to trigger RPS with my pedalboard. You also get to then have another pattern that immediately resets all that so after the crescendo of the solo you set it all back to where it was before you triggered that pattern.
A lot of guitarists use pedalboards to manipulate their sound. They use footpedals to manipulate the sound as you don’t want to have to remove their hands from the notes to turn on and off effects. I simply try to do the same.
Thanks for the input.
howardS
Let me give you one example of RPS usage that I would lose if I get the G. Say you are comping in your left hand or playing a pad (sound, not the pads) and playing a lead in the right. You could switch or add a part to that right hand, add in some delay, perhaps adjust some volume at just the right moment in your solo without having to take your hand off and hit a pad. There is no break in time. Perhaps you think you could move you hand fast enough. Ok, well, what if in the right hand there is another tone which plays during the decay of the notes that you are holding and you don't want to take your hand off the keyboard to hit the pad. The answer for me is to trigger RPS with my pedalboard. You also get to then have another pattern that immediately resets all that so after the crescendo of the solo you set it all back to where it was before you triggered that pattern.
A lot of guitarists use pedalboards to manipulate their sound. They use footpedals to manipulate the sound as you don’t want to have to remove their hands from the notes to turn on and off effects. I simply try to do the same.
Thanks for the input.
howardS
Re: Triggering RPS on the keyboard
Yes, now I understand what kind of foot control you use.
In the G this kind of sound switching could in part be done by Live Sets,where you add or mute sounds. But that would neither replace RPS functions like progressive sound shaping, nor solve the right hand issue. The G's triggering pads are much more flexible in just offering different functions than those of the X ever were, but they don't solve the problem you described.
If I understand you right, the most important feature for you would be to reach RPS functions by foot controller, and the second important thing that you can define and reach much more than 16 functions this way.
This certainly is some quite powerful funcionality, even if I used only part of it so far, and no foot controller at all (having two hold pedals and one multieffect pedal below my keyboards and probably even get problems adding more).
By the way, I know a German keyboarder who likes using a pedal bass alienated for such midi/sample functions.
Anyway, Roland should get full X functionality (multisamples and RPS) back to G, this is something where we completely agree...
P.S.
I just thought about the wonderful 8 sliders in the G. I don't have the G manual at hand now, but it would be ideal to use the sliders (left hand!) for some stuff like increasing delay etc., while doing switching stuff with the pads. What I want to say is: we have not yet tested the interaction of the G functions in practical use and will certainly detect some useful things not yet discussed here...
In the G this kind of sound switching could in part be done by Live Sets,where you add or mute sounds. But that would neither replace RPS functions like progressive sound shaping, nor solve the right hand issue. The G's triggering pads are much more flexible in just offering different functions than those of the X ever were, but they don't solve the problem you described.
If I understand you right, the most important feature for you would be to reach RPS functions by foot controller, and the second important thing that you can define and reach much more than 16 functions this way.
This certainly is some quite powerful funcionality, even if I used only part of it so far, and no foot controller at all (having two hold pedals and one multieffect pedal below my keyboards and probably even get problems adding more).
By the way, I know a German keyboarder who likes using a pedal bass alienated for such midi/sample functions.
Anyway, Roland should get full X functionality (multisamples and RPS) back to G, this is something where we completely agree...
P.S.
I just thought about the wonderful 8 sliders in the G. I don't have the G manual at hand now, but it would be ideal to use the sliders (left hand!) for some stuff like increasing delay etc., while doing switching stuff with the pads. What I want to say is: we have not yet tested the interaction of the G functions in practical use and will certainly detect some useful things not yet discussed here...
Re: Triggering RPS on the keyboard
Jimknopf, I think we understand each other now and you are right that my first priority would be to be able to have this functionality with the foot controller and the second would be to have more than 16 patterns. We shall see how this all works out once the G is out and being used by us.
You talked about that German Keyboarder. Well, I can use this same pedalboard to trigger samples as well since all I am doing with the pedalboard is sending note information. At first I tried to program sysex on the pedalboard but then I realized how much easier it was to program what I needed on the Fantom and simply trigger RPS or samples by assigning them to keyboard.
Also, with respect to the sliders, I agree that it is more intuitive to have eight sliders close together like drawbars on the organ than to use patterns. That said, on the X you can set up RPS to select what parameter will respond to expression information. Then you can manipulate the volume of the parts with your feet expression pedals. I do this with my three pedals. Once manipulates effect information such as wah-wah, one acts as an expression pedal and one sends just controller information and using RPS I select which part responds to that second pedal.
You talked about that German Keyboarder. Well, I can use this same pedalboard to trigger samples as well since all I am doing with the pedalboard is sending note information. At first I tried to program sysex on the pedalboard but then I realized how much easier it was to program what I needed on the Fantom and simply trigger RPS or samples by assigning them to keyboard.
Also, with respect to the sliders, I agree that it is more intuitive to have eight sliders close together like drawbars on the organ than to use patterns. That said, on the X you can set up RPS to select what parameter will respond to expression information. Then you can manipulate the volume of the parts with your feet expression pedals. I do this with my three pedals. Once manipulates effect information such as wah-wah, one acts as an expression pedal and one sends just controller information and using RPS I select which part responds to that second pedal.
Re: Triggering RPS on the keyboard
If Roland told me I get only one of the two, I will chose RPS over multisampling any day. RPS is what makes the Fantom Alive for live performance. It's not only song arrangement tool. I will also agree to strip off 16 audio tracks from the sequencer to give me more RPS features, maybe some MC909 pattern features, external keyboard RPS on one channel...