The original Motif ES thread is getting lengthy, so I figured I'd start another one.
First of all, all of the applause surrounding the Motif ES over at Motifator.com is simply a reaction to lots of patient waiting for Yamaha's announcement. I think it will die down soon enough, and then rational comparisons will be more likely.
Now that it's been a whole 24 hours since I and everyone else received the news about the Motif ES, I continue to see the Fantom-S as a worthy competitor in the workstation market. What it will likely come down to is personal preference in workflow styles instead of specs, specs, specs.
To wit: The Fantom-S will almost surely have a much more musical workflow than the Motif ES, Roland having taken great care to design ease of use into the instrument. Even looking at the brochures alone demonstrates this clearly - the pad bank, skip-back sampling, clear and ergonomic display, etc. all point to this. The Motif ES, on the other hand, has by Yamaha's own declaration almost exactly the same Operating System as the original Motif. And from many testimonies of Motif users, this is not the most user-friendly or musical workflow available in a workstation. Just comparing the size of the screens alone is enough to tip the scales in the Fantom-S's favor.
Second, sample transfer from storage to the Motif ES's internal RAM is done directly from the storage device to the Motif, using the Motif's OS as a file management system. In contrast, even though it may be that a SmartMedia card must be used as an intermediary, the Fantom-S advertises that a PC can be used as a storage and organization device in managing samples to and from the Fantom-S's sample RAM. This is a big plus in favor of the Fantom-S.
I said all of that to make this point clear: Specs aside, what may really matter most to workstation customers is ease of use or how much music can be easily and creatively produced. I for one do not want to think like a computer programmer when it's time to create music. When it's time to create database front ends, that's another story, but that's for another bulletin board.
Fantom-S VS Motif ES
Re: Fantom-S VS Motif ES
Well, it is really hard to compare anything to the Motif ES until it actually comes out. To me, all the Motif ES is right now is a picture, some numbers, and a lot of crazy talk on the Internet. I was caught up in the excite of the new Motif yesterday which surprised me because I have no intention of getting one but seeing that the rumors where true about a new release and having this forum, the KSS forum and the Motifator forum talking about it was exciting. Let me make one thing clear before I slip up and make any unfound judgments of the Motif ES, I am not a Roland loyalist. I think that Roland, Yamaha, and Korg all make very good keyboards and I will gladly buy any of the big threes future products and would also be willing to buy what I considered to be a good product from a keyboard manufacturer not in the big three. I will just say this after yesterday’s big news; I am not impressed with the Motif ES. The original Motif was the first keyboard I ruled out when I was comparing the Motif, Triton Studio, and the Fantom-S. The sounds of the original Motif are great, and I am sure that the Motif ES will have even better sounds, but I could not figure that damn thing to save my life when I was checking it out at the music store. If I were not already a Fantom-S owner I would not wait for the Motif ES to come out to compare it with what is already out there and I would buy what is already out there currently. Forum members that are in the market for a new keyboard and are here for comparisons will probably be making a wise choice to wait for the Motif ES arrival before making a keyboard purchase but I would not. What I think will be the next real big thing is when Korg ends the Triton series and puts out a new series. When this will happen I do not know, but that is what I believe will be the next major step forward for this type of keyboard. I guess the new Kurzweil will probably be huge but I personally never think too much about Kurzweil and this may be a major mistake on my part.
[EDIT] I would like to ad one thing to this already long post. I give credit to Yamaha for continuing the development of the Motif. From what I was reading yesterday, Yamaha did just about everything they could in terms of OS upgrades to the original Motif and to take this hugely successful keyboard further it needed to be redone to a certain degree and that is what they did. It seemed to me like Yamaha was going to get away from doing this with their keyboards and I think that would have been a bad decision. I would have liked to see a version 2 of the EX-5 and if this had happened you all probably would not have to put up with me on this forum because I would be over at the EX-5.2 forum. Motif ES was a good decision on Yamaha’s part in my opinion. It would have been nice if they had taken it even further than what they did but there is a reason that Yamaha is such a successful corporation.
You the man, Artemio!
[EDIT] I would like to ad one thing to this already long post. I give credit to Yamaha for continuing the development of the Motif. From what I was reading yesterday, Yamaha did just about everything they could in terms of OS upgrades to the original Motif and to take this hugely successful keyboard further it needed to be redone to a certain degree and that is what they did. It seemed to me like Yamaha was going to get away from doing this with their keyboards and I think that would have been a bad decision. I would have liked to see a version 2 of the EX-5 and if this had happened you all probably would not have to put up with me on this forum because I would be over at the EX-5.2 forum. Motif ES was a good decision on Yamaha’s part in my opinion. It would have been nice if they had taken it even further than what they did but there is a reason that Yamaha is such a successful corporation.
You the man, Artemio!
-
Tony Clifton
- Posts: 269
- Joined: 19:59, 26 May 2003
- Location: NYC/FLA
Re: Fantom-S VS Motif ES
Great posts both your's and Jim's!!!!!
I had to chime in
I found the original Motif 8 screen,keyboard,and power grand piano not that impressive.
I loved the sounds of the presets and especially the strumming guitars.
I still plan to buy the Mo rack by Xmas.
The triple strike keyboard for the Mo ES is great for Yamaha users and a great improvement for the 8.
That being said at 64 mgs with the SRX-02 board the premier grand sounds great for practicing on the S88 in piano mode.
Haven't tried to see if it sounds good or doesn't cut through in a recording mix.
128 voices on the 3 strike ES and a new power grand sound will most likely sound better and be much more expressive than the Fantom-S SRX and it should no argument.
But that's another reason to buy the Motif rack if it becomes an issue as far as cutting through in the mix.
You can never have ENOUGH RACKS or OUTBOARD GEAR GIMME GIMME!
I like the action of the S88 keys and thought the Yamaha P-250
was most impressive because of the terrific sounding built-in speaker system but the action was not ALL THAT AND A BAG O CHIPS as far as the RD-700 action action on Rolands IMHO !
I did not buy the Fantom-S to be a piano anyway geez.
But it is not bad at all in that department as far as playing and practicing my chops!!!
Neither the Mo ES or Roland use USB2 technology.
I think the ES is compatible with USB2 but not any faster in data rate transfer than the Roland.
As FBJ stated we need to actually play and demo a New MO ES for real comparisons.
I ordered the Motif ES DVD for a LOOK last night.
Rather than comparisons the new Yamy MO ES with 128 poly just points out a few things Roland dropped the ball on in the first version of the FS.
I have no doubt that Kurz will blow everybody away with color touchscreen and 256 poly when it premiers the K3000.
But unless it comes with a Kurz programer/egineer in the box it like the Motif OS navigation will NOT SERVE MY PURPOSES!
I'm a LAZY GOOD FOR NOTHING MAC user and look for elegant toasters whenever possible NOT COMPLICATED TECHNOLOGY that stays inside the 8000 page manuals /instruction videos and still BURNS MY TOAST.
EASE OF USE RULES ON THE FANTOM-S end of story.
I refer back to my expertise and experience with the Roland V-drum series.
Bear in mind drums and singing are my primary instruments so i have a limited keyboard history LOL.
Anyway the original TD-10 module for the V-drums in 96 or 95 was greatly improved in 98 I believe by the TDW-1 ex board just amazing UPGRADE IMHO of an amazing original Roland product.
So i trust Roland will follow suit with the Fantom line.
I wish they would design a more helpful website and user base and GET THE DARN VIDEO FS MANUAL OUT ASAP!
I'm keeping my Fantom-S for now thankyou.
Loved the HC site yesterday the line WHITE PUNKS ON DOPE reigns over there!
And poor KNOW IT ALL TDM has replaced his ADOLESCENCE with OBSOLESCENCE !
SHOULD HAVE STAYED ON ARTEMIO's TEAM!
However I will gladly test a New MO ES and or accept one as a gift.
If anyone wishes to do so.
Peace,
Tony
I had to chime in
I found the original Motif 8 screen,keyboard,and power grand piano not that impressive.
I loved the sounds of the presets and especially the strumming guitars.
I still plan to buy the Mo rack by Xmas.
The triple strike keyboard for the Mo ES is great for Yamaha users and a great improvement for the 8.
That being said at 64 mgs with the SRX-02 board the premier grand sounds great for practicing on the S88 in piano mode.
Haven't tried to see if it sounds good or doesn't cut through in a recording mix.
128 voices on the 3 strike ES and a new power grand sound will most likely sound better and be much more expressive than the Fantom-S SRX and it should no argument.
But that's another reason to buy the Motif rack if it becomes an issue as far as cutting through in the mix.
You can never have ENOUGH RACKS or OUTBOARD GEAR GIMME GIMME!
I like the action of the S88 keys and thought the Yamaha P-250
was most impressive because of the terrific sounding built-in speaker system but the action was not ALL THAT AND A BAG O CHIPS as far as the RD-700 action action on Rolands IMHO !
I did not buy the Fantom-S to be a piano anyway geez.
But it is not bad at all in that department as far as playing and practicing my chops!!!
Neither the Mo ES or Roland use USB2 technology.
I think the ES is compatible with USB2 but not any faster in data rate transfer than the Roland.
As FBJ stated we need to actually play and demo a New MO ES for real comparisons.
I ordered the Motif ES DVD for a LOOK last night.
Rather than comparisons the new Yamy MO ES with 128 poly just points out a few things Roland dropped the ball on in the first version of the FS.
I have no doubt that Kurz will blow everybody away with color touchscreen and 256 poly when it premiers the K3000.
But unless it comes with a Kurz programer/egineer in the box it like the Motif OS navigation will NOT SERVE MY PURPOSES!
I'm a LAZY GOOD FOR NOTHING MAC user and look for elegant toasters whenever possible NOT COMPLICATED TECHNOLOGY that stays inside the 8000 page manuals /instruction videos and still BURNS MY TOAST.
EASE OF USE RULES ON THE FANTOM-S end of story.
I refer back to my expertise and experience with the Roland V-drum series.
Bear in mind drums and singing are my primary instruments so i have a limited keyboard history LOL.
Anyway the original TD-10 module for the V-drums in 96 or 95 was greatly improved in 98 I believe by the TDW-1 ex board just amazing UPGRADE IMHO of an amazing original Roland product.
So i trust Roland will follow suit with the Fantom line.
I wish they would design a more helpful website and user base and GET THE DARN VIDEO FS MANUAL OUT ASAP!
I'm keeping my Fantom-S for now thankyou.
Loved the HC site yesterday the line WHITE PUNKS ON DOPE reigns over there!
And poor KNOW IT ALL TDM has replaced his ADOLESCENCE with OBSOLESCENCE !
SHOULD HAVE STAYED ON ARTEMIO's TEAM!
However I will gladly test a New MO ES and or accept one as a gift.
If anyone wishes to do so.
Peace,
Tony
Re: Fantom-S VS Motif ES
That was a good post, Tony! I am glad that you are still am member of Artemio’s team!
You the man, Artemio!
You the man, Artemio!
Motif ES - more than vapor.
FBJ, with all due respect, it seems like the Motif ES is much more than "a picture, some numbers, and a lot of crazy talk on the Internet". That is unless Yamaha is practicing some significantly deceptive practices, which I'm sure they're not.
All of the Yamaha reps are currently posting like crazy on Motifator.com, answering a plethora of questions regarding the ES. There are specs, pictures, audio demos, (which I agree are the "pictures and numbers" you mention) on multiple Yamaha company internet sites, and there is even a manual available on line.
Compared to some other hardware products that have "vaporized" (like the Alesis ION - bummer!), I think the Motif ES is much more of a real product, with a definite release date.
All of the Yamaha reps are currently posting like crazy on Motifator.com, answering a plethora of questions regarding the ES. There are specs, pictures, audio demos, (which I agree are the "pictures and numbers" you mention) on multiple Yamaha company internet sites, and there is even a manual available on line.
Compared to some other hardware products that have "vaporized" (like the Alesis ION - bummer!), I think the Motif ES is much more of a real product, with a definite release date.
Motif Rack - No Triple-Strike Piano Yet
Tony, as of yet there is no option to install the triple-strike piano in the Motif Rack - only if Yamaha releases a triple-strike piano PLG, which they say they "will consider based on reaction from Motif ES users". So figure that's at least a year away, if at all.
Also, the MO Rack won't have the expanded ROM voices that the ES will have. So even though I agree with your statement about never having enough rack gear, I think maybe the Motif ES 6 might be the way to go, until they release a rack ES, which I don't think would be before Summer NAMM 2004, but we'll have to wait and see.
Also, the MO Rack won't have the expanded ROM voices that the ES will have. So even though I agree with your statement about never having enough rack gear, I think maybe the Motif ES 6 might be the way to go, until they release a rack ES, which I don't think would be before Summer NAMM 2004, but we'll have to wait and see.
Re: Fantom-S VS Motif ES
2TIM316 quote:
“All of the Yamaha reps are currently posting like crazy on Motifator.com, answering a plethora of questions regarding the ES.”
This is very true and very impressive. Mike Martin from Yamaha is working a thread over at Harmony Central like mad. Yamaha is really giving this new keyboard a lot of time and attention on the Internet the last couple of days. They really seem to think that this new Motif is really the…one.
2TIM316 quote:
“FBJ, with all due respect, it seems like the Motif ES is much more than "a picture, some numbers, and a lot of crazy talk on the Internet".”
I am glad that you see it that way and I think and hope that most people would agree with you, especially for Yamaha’s sake. I might be a little slow but I really need to use a product first hand when it is something as complicated as these keyboards are now days to have it really mean much to me. I kind of see the big picture regarding the Motif ES but not like you apparently can or like Artemio can with the Fantom-S, which I am willing to bet good money on that he has yet to see or play in person yet he believes that this is the keyboard for him. I’m just not this way apparently. A good example of this is that I was really impressed with the original Motif until I played one first hand. If I had bought one going on specs, pictures, great sounding audio demo's and fairly positive opinions on the Internet when it first came out I would have been one unhappy customer in the end because I really don’t care much for the Motif now after trying to figure it out. My guess about the Motif ES is this; if you like the original Motif than you are going to love the Motif ES and visa versa. I think this is what Yamaha is aware of also.
You the man, Artemio!
“All of the Yamaha reps are currently posting like crazy on Motifator.com, answering a plethora of questions regarding the ES.”
This is very true and very impressive. Mike Martin from Yamaha is working a thread over at Harmony Central like mad. Yamaha is really giving this new keyboard a lot of time and attention on the Internet the last couple of days. They really seem to think that this new Motif is really the…one.
2TIM316 quote:
“FBJ, with all due respect, it seems like the Motif ES is much more than "a picture, some numbers, and a lot of crazy talk on the Internet".”
I am glad that you see it that way and I think and hope that most people would agree with you, especially for Yamaha’s sake. I might be a little slow but I really need to use a product first hand when it is something as complicated as these keyboards are now days to have it really mean much to me. I kind of see the big picture regarding the Motif ES but not like you apparently can or like Artemio can with the Fantom-S, which I am willing to bet good money on that he has yet to see or play in person yet he believes that this is the keyboard for him. I’m just not this way apparently. A good example of this is that I was really impressed with the original Motif until I played one first hand. If I had bought one going on specs, pictures, great sounding audio demo's and fairly positive opinions on the Internet when it first came out I would have been one unhappy customer in the end because I really don’t care much for the Motif now after trying to figure it out. My guess about the Motif ES is this; if you like the original Motif than you are going to love the Motif ES and visa versa. I think this is what Yamaha is aware of also.
You the man, Artemio!
Re: Fantom-S VS Motif ES
I have been reading that thread. Those who want a better user interface rather than better sounds are in the majority. Mike Martin is shoving the company party line at them by saying sounds are more important. The only way he could be right is when you consider his argument within the context of market share, and he did not mention that. Even then, the strategy of having superior sounds won't last forever. Sooner or later buyers will realize what they are missing. Someone ought to post Fantom-S MP3 files with the factory presets just to rattle the whole group over there. Maybe a dozen bars of Super Wurly or something to get their attention. LOL.
It depends...
MK, for my application of doing live gigs, I would choose the Motif ES's 128 notes of polyphony and triple-strike piano, regardless of the interface. As long as I could change patches easily, that's all I need to do once I have my gig sounds programmed and tweaked.
On the other hand, for music production, assuming I'm going to produce with a workstation and not a computer, then of course the user interface and musical workflow become paramount.
So I guess it depends on the application!
On the other hand, for music production, assuming I'm going to produce with a workstation and not a computer, then of course the user interface and musical workflow become paramount.
So I guess it depends on the application!
-
Tony Clifton
- Posts: 269
- Joined: 19:59, 26 May 2003
- Location: NYC/FLA
Re: Fantom-S VS Motif ES
2TIM316
Thanks for the info.
We think alike I ordered the ES DVD for 5 bucks last night!
I'm impressed by the ES and I saw the specs on the new wave ROM and NO BACKWARD compatability to upload to older product line like Mo rack.
However I don't expect to buy the Mo ES6 just for a triple strike piano!
$2350 will stay in my pocket.
I'm tapped out these days.
I imagine Korg and Roland both will have something NEW out by summer 2004?
Roland may have to go the route that Kurz went with the K-2600-2661 upgrade and add a 61 note 128 poly Fantom-S with similiar specs to the ES less the AWM2 TG and triple strike key until they release their Fantom-S 3 version etc.
Then by Jan 05 the market will dictate ALL THE BELLS & WHISTLES in a Fantom-XS 88 key overhaul with USB2 and whatever else they feel will improve their market share to be cutting edge.
I'll probably see if I can find a used MO rack in the meantime.
If Roland doesn't at least do something like a FS video manual and an OS update to give us Akai support I'll be po'd.
I have to tell you the more I use the Fantom-S88 the more AMAZING it gets!
The Motif needs to improve their UI and drop the tiny screen and then I could get into learning the navigation a bit more enthusiastically.
I'll take Rolands OS over that dark martian ROCKY JONES SPACE RANGER crap.
Plus Korg may blow our minds by early next year with a new Triton line?
You will never catch up now in this RACE INTO SPACE with the ES announcement and I like that!
It's all good.
I'll post back here when I get the ES DVD which isn't even available for three weeks-four weeks.
Cancel my credit cards this could get ugly LOL!
Peace,
Tony
Thanks for the info.
We think alike I ordered the ES DVD for 5 bucks last night!
I'm impressed by the ES and I saw the specs on the new wave ROM and NO BACKWARD compatability to upload to older product line like Mo rack.
However I don't expect to buy the Mo ES6 just for a triple strike piano!
$2350 will stay in my pocket.
I'm tapped out these days.
I imagine Korg and Roland both will have something NEW out by summer 2004?
Roland may have to go the route that Kurz went with the K-2600-2661 upgrade and add a 61 note 128 poly Fantom-S with similiar specs to the ES less the AWM2 TG and triple strike key until they release their Fantom-S 3 version etc.
Then by Jan 05 the market will dictate ALL THE BELLS & WHISTLES in a Fantom-XS 88 key overhaul with USB2 and whatever else they feel will improve their market share to be cutting edge.
I'll probably see if I can find a used MO rack in the meantime.
If Roland doesn't at least do something like a FS video manual and an OS update to give us Akai support I'll be po'd.
I have to tell you the more I use the Fantom-S88 the more AMAZING it gets!
The Motif needs to improve their UI and drop the tiny screen and then I could get into learning the navigation a bit more enthusiastically.
I'll take Rolands OS over that dark martian ROCKY JONES SPACE RANGER crap.
Plus Korg may blow our minds by early next year with a new Triton line?
You will never catch up now in this RACE INTO SPACE with the ES announcement and I like that!
It's all good.
I'll post back here when I get the ES DVD which isn't even available for three weeks-four weeks.
Cancel my credit cards this could get ugly LOL!
Peace,
Tony