X6 and questions on mutli-samples

[buminbeer]

I am wanting to do some re-mixes of my own tunes and a few other projects, here is what I am looking for.
All my samples will be loaded as .wavs from the computer. A lot of these are single tracks I exported from some of my songs, edited them in Audacity and after chopping them up, importing them back in. So, I have figured out how to import to samples to Ram. That's as far as I get, tehe. I would assume I need to save all samples to my internal or card, the card is where I want them to go.

Now, I assume I rename each sample on the synth and save them to card, but before I do that, here is what I want to do. I want to say maybe save 7-20 samples on a patch to recall to use live or on the sequencer. Now it gets tricky I suppose(since I know nothing more then this or how to do it). I do know I want to assign samples to keys and make a patch.
So, Certain samples, I would like as a one shot, but also on a different key as a loop and maybe even backwards on another key. Is this possible?
In a nutshell, It's a patch with my assigned samples to whatever keys I decide and some samples I need to have variations of. Imagine a samples sung of, "You always want me". Sometimes, I'll need to hit the key 4 times fast, so "You" is You-you-you-you, then let go and let the phrase "you always want me" as a one shot. Other times I'll need to hit another key and have that phrase repeat, until I want to stop it(as a loop). Not sure that is possible as I would need to hit that same key to shut it off? And finally, I might want on another the key the same thing, but reversed as a one shot.
In laymen terms, is all that possible, how to do it and assume I'm only as far as I know how to get the samples to ram, not even sure how to set a multi-sample up much less make it a patch :) I am slowly mastering this keyboard after all these years :)
Thanks you brains of this...

[Credo]

First things first:

Getting samples from the PC into the X.

Since you mentioned wanting to get it on a flash card: Do you have a CF reader on your PC?
If so:
1. Stick a card that has already been formatted in the X unit in your PC reader.

2. Drag your samples in either wav or aif format to the TMP/AUDO_IMPORT directory on the card. Note, you'll want the samples to be 16bit, 44.1khz sample rate.

3. Browse your X user manual to see how to import and load these samples.

4. Plug the card into your X and import the samples.

5. Save the sample set. Again you'll need the manual to refresh your memory on how to do this.

Now you can delete all the samples you put in the TMP/AUDIO_IMPORT folder if you want that space back on the card for other things.

If you do NOT have a CF reader in your PC.

1. You'll need to make sure you have Fantom X USB drivers installed on your PC (You're gonna want them anyway to run X-Editor for building your multi-sample presets and patches).

2. Browse your X manual to see how to mount the CF card so that your PC can see it when installed in the Fantom X.

3. follow through with steps 2-5 above.

Now for building your patches.
I think you'll want to use X-Editor for this project....as it has tools to more easily manipulate how samples will play, and set up multi-sample sets, build patches or rythm-sets and more.

Yes, I think you can do much of what you have described here by using rhythm presets (think of them like drum sets).

You'll want to use mufti-tembral 'performance mode', and layer your patches and rhythm-sets accordingly.

In short...provided your X has enough memory installed for your samples, all of this sounds quite doable to me.

So what's this about USB Drivers and X-Editor software? You can find that stuff, as well as PDF copies of an X6 user manual here:
http://roland.com/support/article/?q=do ... =FANTOM-X6

Please don't hesitate to come back and post more as more 'specific' questions arise once you get started. Sharing X-Editor patches might also help forum users with a wide range of Fantom series units to take a look at your patches, give tips, and help trouble shoot ideas.

I personally don't have an X6, but rather an XR...however, patch and rythm-set design is quite similar between the two, so I'll be happy to help where I can.

Good Luck,
Credo

[buminbeer]

Well you confused me more then I was :)
I have a maxed out X6, 556 mb memory or whatever max it is and 4 srx boards. I have a 2 gig cf in the back of it with the adaptor. The memory card is plugged on the synth as have the adaptor. I want all this on the card, not internal memory.
Why do I need to use the x-editor? I am well aware how to get the .wavs to the synth in user memory. I think the XR scenario is not what I was looking for. Everything you mentioned, I already knew. Please re-read what I am trying to do sample wise. The X-editor won't do anything sample wise, will it?
Also, I do not want to use performance mode at all, I want these multi-samples as a patch. I am thinking you did not read what my needs are :)

[Credo]

Well you confused me more then I was :)
I have a maxed out X6, 556 mb memory or whatever max it is and 4 srx boards. I have a 2 gig cf in the back of it with the adaptor.
Why do I need to use the x-editor? I am well aware how to get the .wavs to the synth in user memory. I think the XR scenario is not what I was looking for. Everything you mentioned, I already knew. Please re-read what I am trying to do sample wise. The X-editor won't do anything sample wise, will it?
Also, I do not want to use performance mode at all, I want these multi-samples as a patch. I am thinking you did not read what my needs are :)

I'm obviously too incompetent to read and help you (and exchange example X-Editor rhythm presets that may well explain what you are trying to do, which would work on ALL Famtom series units).

Someone else with better reading comprehension skills can help you.

Have a nice day,
Credo

[LA Keys]

I am thinking you did not read what my needs are :)

And I am thinking that you did not read the manual...
Sampling is all explained from page 141 to 159.

I believe this is your last resort after pissing off guys who tried to help you

LA

[buminbeer]

My god LA keys, it is not WELL explained at all in the manual on how to do this. I have the manual, it does not explain, unless I am stupid, how to set up samples per key, can they be looped or not, per key and so on. I did not mean to be rude, but you guys act like newbs like me should know terms and what not. I don't know how to explain some things.
To Credo, I WAS NOT meaning anything, maybe I just don't understand what I was trying to say. I did read the manual, it makes not sense to me. Let's say I am a 10 year old. I need things like this explained to me in that language. I don't understand what the X-editor does at all, I loaded it up and looked greek to me. You are assuming I know what rhythm sets are, I don't.
"You'll want to use mufti-tembral 'performance mode', and layer your patches and rhythm-sets accordingly."
He lost me 100% there. Do I need to make a multi patch in performance mode to make a patch.
Again sorry, but lost. If you don't want to help me fine, I'll just not take on the projects.
Thanks anyway and sorry to you both...

[Credo]

My god LA keys, it is not WELL explained at all in the manual on how to do this. I have the manual, it does not explain, unless I am stupid, how to set up samples per key, can they be looped or not, per key and so on. I did not mean to be rude, but you guys act like newbs like me should know terms and what not. I don't know how to explain some things.
To Credo, I WAS NOT meaning anything, maybe I just don't understand what I was trying to say. I did read the manual, it makes not sense to me. Let's say I am a 10 year old. I need things like this explained to me in that language. I don't understand what the X-editor does at all, I loaded it up and looked greek to me. You are assuming I know what rhythm sets are, I don't.
"You'll want to use mufti-tembral 'performance mode', and layer your patches and rhythm-sets accordingly."
He lost me 100% there. Do I need to make a multi patch in performance mode to make a patch.
Again sorry, but lost. If you don't want to help me fine, I'll just not take on the projects.
Thanks anyway and sorry to you both...

OK, apologies on my part. I've calmed down. I like participating in forums like this because it helps me briefly escape other 'life irritations'. So sorry I got over sensitive and took it out on you.

First, it wasn't clear to me that you knew how to get the samples in the X6 via CF. You spoke of the card, and of user memory, etc. I just wanted to cover that real quick because I saw signs that the differences between CF memory, User Memory, and TMP RAM might not be clear to you. That stuff can be rather confusing, as it's not all exactly the same in a Fantom.

Also, others do searches online and see these threads years on down the road. It's nice if I can touch on concepts and ideas that help anyone that happens to be Googling with similar questions to yours.

Next:
I could be wrong, and it might be possible to do this with a multi-sample 'patch' in 'patch mode', but with quite a few compromises on what you seemed to be asking for.

This is why I recommend thinking this thing through FIRST in performance mode. In this case you can layer up to 16 patches, with 4 to 8 sample playing slots (tone generators with all the filters and control matrix goodies that come with them) each...to get things working.

Since you seem to be requesting fairly complex methods of triggering these samples, my initial thought is that you may well need more than 4 tone generators to do this. A 'single patch' just might not cut it. The good news is that in performance mode, you can layer up to 16 patches or presets together and treat them as a kind of 'super patch'.

That means layering some patches or rhythm sets on top of each other. It's not that you'll need that much polyphony to get the job done. It's just due to limitations in how the X series patches are made (velocity layers, cross-fades, samples that trigger on key release while something else is playing on key push...and so forth).

As for using a multi-sample set in a patch. For your vocal sample examples, with one shots mixed with loops, I'm thinking a rhythm set preset is a better place to start the inital stages of your sound design than a 'mufti-sample instrument patch'. You can only get a single patch to play 4 stereo samples at once. If you build your samples right you 'might' can fake 8 mono sounds on a single patch. Even if you only need 'one' sound to play at once, there are still some limits due to the way all the other patch parameters work together.

rhythm presets are different in terms of playing back lots of different samples at once, and seem better suited to your needs as I understand them.

Here is why I'm initially thinking rhythm presets instead of instrument patches:
With a rhythm preset, you treat a patch more like a drum kit. You can go in and assign an entire sample to a specific key (no multi-sample map is needed in this case), and treat that one key kind of like an independent patch with things like panning, volume, FX sends, one-shot vs looping samples, reverse sample play-back, tempo synching, and the list goes on. Each key can have it's own independent amp and pitch envelope.

As an 'instrumental patch with a mufti-sample map'...so much more of that stuff is 'shared' across the entire keyboard while unlocking other sorts of sound design benefits that to me, don't seem to fit your situation as well. That's more for making pianos, organs, guitars, and stuff like that.

So read up on rhythm-set creation. This much will at least get you playing the sample you want when striking a key.

As for making a single key do one thing when you hit it, and something else when you release it. That's where I'm thinking performance mode 'might' well be necessary. In having two patches layered over the same channel, you can probably do this stuff! Trying to do it with a single patch alone 'might' still be possible, but my initial educated guess is that it's going to take more work and trial and error to 'get it right' if you try to cram it into a single patch in patch mode.

X-Editor is suggested for a couple of reasons.
1. You can see how all these patch parameters relate more easily without changing screens.

2. You can cut and paste entire chunks of stuff from one tone generator, FX, or even bits from one patch to another.

3. You can take screen shots and ask specific questions on forums, and people will see what you're seeing.

4. You can exchange these X-Editor files with people online, and it won't matter what specific model of Fantom series synth they have.

5. Yes, you can do everything on the X7 itself that you can do in X-Editor....but it might be 9 screen levels deep, and 60 odd menu scrolls and button clicks away....where in the X-Editor you can open up lots of stuff at once, and see how it all correlates and interacts throughout the synth engine.

6. If you do need a sample map, or want to alter how the X plays a sample back (looping, tempo, tuning, etc)...it's going to be far easier than doing it on the X itself.

Doing synth sound design is a little daunting at first, but once you unfold it all in front of you with something like X-Editor, it starts to get easier, and FUN.

So...where to start?
Just make yourself a simple drum kit using onboard samples. You'll learn a LOT about the X doing that, and a grand vision for your vocal track scenario will start to unfold in your mind.

The tricky stuff will be learning how to do the fancy triggering you spoke of, where a single key can do more than one thing depending on how you play it (awesome stuff if you also have MPC pads). You can use alternative methods...like just assigning the variations to another key or velocity layer instead....but that's not what you asked for.

Yes...I'm a wordy guy. That's just me. I often cover more than is asked, but then again, people often ask VERY VAGUE questions...so too much is better than too little.

So...homework: Read up on how to make a simple drum kit. That should get some gears turning concerning this interesting vocal track patch you've got in mind.

Credo

[buminbeer]

Man thank you so much, again was not trying to degrade your advice, but I see you know what I am asking. This is bad news mostly as it seems like I need a more dedicated sampler then the Fantom x :( I understand a lot more now of the X-editor) reasons now, thank you so much. I guess this got a lot more complicated then I thought it would be.
I think I can get the rhythm example to work.
Well, now I have to decide how far I want to go with samples it seems. Sigh. I'll save this for reference. thanks for so much of your time. Loading the laser printer now.

[Credo]

Man thank you so much, again was not trying to degrade your advice, but I see you know what I am asking. This is bad news mostly as it seems like I need a more dedicated sampler then the Fantom x :( I understand a lot more now of the X-editor) reasons now, thank you so much. I guess this got a lot more complicated then I thought it would be.
I think I can get the drum example to work(multipatch)
Well, now I have to decide how far I want to go with samples it seems. Sigh. I'll save this for reference. thanks for so much of your time. Loading the laser printer now.

No problem.

Try not to let my 'wall of words' discourage you.
Seeing and hearing it in front of you in that Editor should make much more sense than my long winded paragraphs. It gets more intuitive and fun...as you can try stuff, hit a key, and hear how it responds instantly.

If you can set up a real trap drum set, then you can grasp how to get very close to what you're asking for inside the X all by yourself. Just think of your samples as a snare, a kick drum, etc. Assign them to a key in a rhythm preset.

The fancy triggering stuff is where people with more experience can help you. You might decide you don't need that anymore, as you can just use another key to get the same effects; however, if you want to dive deeper and learn to make really cool instruments with fancy DJ style triggering options...I'll do my best to help you start figuring that stuff out as well.

Also, don't underestimate the learning curve to something like Kontakt or Halion. In terms of what you're wanting to do here...the X is quite capable. While today's 'heavy weight' samplers have fewer 'limits' in what they can do, the depth and complexity of making a simple patch in something like Kontakt can get just as intense as working with an X6.

If you do want some sampling software that's a little easier to get your head around for simple MPC style sample triggering, consider something like Groove Agent or Battery. If you use a DAW on a computer already, it might well have something along these lines included already (let us know what DAW you have, and I'll look into its included sampler plugins for you). If you prefer 'hardware' and are trying to avoid pure PC based solutions...something like an AKAI Renaissance might be in order (but it won't be much more powerful than your X6...just 'different' in terms of user set-up, connectivity, sound design, and playing style).

Credo

[Andy Keys]

Credo - GREAT response :)
Buminbeer - I think Credo is right, and this will be much easier if you do it as a rhythm set, rather than as a "normal" patch. For many reasons, including...

Imagine a samples sung of, "You always want me". Sometimes, I'll need to hit the key 4 times fast, so "You" is You-you-you-you, then let go and let the phrase "you always want me" as a one shot. Other times I'll need to hit another key and have that phrase repeat, until I want to stop it(as a loop). Not sure that is possible as I would need to hit that same key to shut it off? And finally, I might want on another the key the same thing, but reversed as a one shot.

You can assign rhythm sounds in a rhythm set to "Mute Groups". The idea is that only one sound from a mute group can play at a time (like a drummer can only hit one thing at a time with each hand). Using those, you could assign a silent sound (yeah, yeah, I know...) to one key in the same Mute Group as your loop sound. Then when you want to silence the loop, you just hit another key assigned to the same mute group.

As Credo says, get stuck in, and we'll try to help as you come up against stumbling blocks. It's complex, but I think it should be possible. :)

Andy

[buminbeer]

Cool and thank you guys much, let me dig in for a few days and I'll hit you back. I think I can live with one shots as I could always do a reverse on an outside program and import that as a one shot. You guys are great like always. The staccato type sounds would be like the Paul Hardcastle 19 song. Where is stutters, the 19 part. That was the main thing, that type sound. I don't think the loops are important as much, because I could retrigger them if I place the samples correctly :)
I will try and load these files and work on it. you guys are a blessing!

[Credo]

I fiddled with the idea of a single key studdering effect using a single rhythm preset for a few minutes this morning.

One of the more simplistic approaches I came across would be to experiment with the following.

In this example lets say you have the phrase, "You always want me!"

Extract just the word "You" into a short sample of its own, set its loop points and all as you desire.

Load that up.
You'll also need the full phrase, "You always want me!" as a separate sample with no loop points set.

Put the full phrase in the Tone 1 slot.
Put just the "You" in the Tone 2 slot.

Set a velocity layer for Tone 1 so that if you tap the key with normal force, you get the entire phrase.
Set a velocity layer for Tone 2 so that if you hit the key really hard/fast, you only get the looping 'You'.

Note, that using this method you'll have to do a quick double strike to stop the loop and then play the entire phrase. So if you want "You" to studder 3 times, then you'd hit the key hard/fast and hold the key for 2 "You"s, lets it up and tap it softer for a final, "You always want me!"

I didn't think to try it, but you might also be able to use the sustain pedal somehow for hand free looping of the high velocity "You".

Credo

[buminbeer]

Very cool, yet another idea I certainly would not have thought of! I could easily just have that "you" done direct into the keyboard or simply chop it. This is why I asked you guys, you thought outside the box I was trapped in. I'll keep you informed as I think all of you all, got me where I need to be, hehe. The users guide gave me little clue on how to do it. I certainly NEVER thought of velocity as a way to it!!
Brilliant. Again, sorry if I came off as some jerk in the beginning, did not mean too, just did not phrase things correctly...That's why this forum rocks, just for the experts to help out!