Performance Layer changing MIDI

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joyof60
Posts: 21
Joined: 15:27, 16 June 2013

Performance Layer changing MIDI

Post by joyof60 »

When working in my DAW, (cakewalk Sonar Pro), I often couple/Layer sounds of the FX8 and some softsynths although I do so on different tracks so I can edit the midi if needed. I've noticed that when using performance layer sounds it alters the sounds/tone of my softsynth (not just one or two but all so it doesn't appear to be softsynth related). They play fine together if I'm using a patch tone, but Performance layer really screws them up. Is there a workaround to remedy this, or is it just policy of the Fanthom? I am using Win7 Pro, 64bit, audio interface is a Roland OctaCapture. Also I am recording the FX8 as analog and controlling the MIDI softsynth with the FX8 simultaneously, if that matters. Please advise, and thanks in advance!
Credo
Posts: 62
Joined: 10:38, 29 January 2015

Re: Performance Layer changing MIDI

Post by Credo »

joyof60 wrote:When working in my DAW, (cakewalk Sonar Pro), I often couple/Layer sounds of the FX8 and some softsynths although I do so on different tracks so I can edit the midi if needed. I've noticed that when using performance layer sounds it alters the sounds/tone of my softsynth (not just one or two but all so it doesn't appear to be softsynth related). They play fine together if I'm using a patch tone, but Performance layer really screws them up. Is there a workaround to remedy this, or is it just policy of the Fanthom? I am using Win7 Pro, 64bit, audio interface is a Roland OctaCapture. Also I am recording the FX8 as analog and controlling the MIDI softsynth with the FX8 simultaneously, if that matters. Please advise, and thanks in advance!
If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds to me like you've chosen a performance patch on the X8 that has an FX setup that doesn't work well with your selection of instruments (parts).

When loading multiple instruments in performance mode, Roland calls them "parts"; so, in essence, you call up a "Performance Patch" which can host up to 16 parts (instrument patches).

Note, that the Fantom has a limit of 128 tones or samples it can play back at one time, so it's 'possible' that your problem might be related to this if your arrangement is using several parts with lots of chords or polyphony. If you are playing a combination of patches that go beyond this 128 tone limit, the Fantom will start 'stealing notes' (or more specifically tone generators). You can choose if it steals the 'longest sustained' tone, or if it steals the one at the 'lowest volume', etc... (this is chosen in the globals setup).

The Fantom has something like 5 FX slots, plus a final and optional Master compression unit. In performance mode all of your parts (up to 16 of them) must 'share' the 5 FX units. This can throw users for a loop when they find that some patches loose their life as compared to how they sound in patch mode.

To get around this FX issue, you'll have to design a new FX chain for the performance patch that divvies up the effect resources for the best overall sound across all 16 parts.

When you are in patch mode the single patch you have called up has total control of all 5 Effect units, and these settings are saved with and called up along with the patch.

When you are in performance mode you can load up to 16 instrument patches at once as parts and assign them to what ever MIDI channel you'd like to play the patch; however, things can change in terms of how the Fantom assigns its effect slots in this mode. All 16 of these parts must share the 5 FX units. Performance mode gives you a variety of choices on what FX settings to apply, and how they will be implemented. These settings are saved and called up via the performance patch.

I like to use the Fantom X Editor: to design my Performance Effect chain. The utility makes it easy to build and manage patches and libraries of them from a PC. I can save entire setups as smf/mid files and import/incorporate that into DAW projects if I like (I.E. establish a 'prep bar' at the beginning of the project that sends a sysex dump to the Fantom and gets it all ready to go for the loaded project).

I can even set up a MIDI loop driver and pass or record things I'm doing in X-Editor in real time through a track in my DAW if I like. I.E. Record my real time tweaking of an effect on the Fantom in X Editor on a sysex enabled track in the DAW.

Changes you make with X-Editor are done in a live memory buffer on the X, so they do not effect any of your stored Fantom memory presets unless you physically go to the Fantom itself and 'save' your edits as a preset. So, if you want to save something that you've done in X-Editor on the Fantom as a preset, then don't forget to go to the Fantom Control panel and name/save it to a user memory or flash card preset.

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You can find X Editor here: http://roland.com/support/article/?q=do ... ANTOM%2DX8
joyof60
Posts: 21
Joined: 15:27, 16 June 2013

Re: Performance Layer changing MIDI

Post by joyof60 »

Thanks, that may indeed be my problem, I am using a Piano layer that I have with several of the FX8's piano voices layered and mixed so there is probably a lot of the polyphony right there. The MIDI voice that is separate although still controlled by the FX8 will need additional polyphony as well, am I right? That would explain the MIDI voices to not sound right if I'm thinking correctly. Sometime I get carried away and do not realize the actual limitations.
Thanks so much!
Credo
Posts: 62
Joined: 10:38, 29 January 2015

Re: Performance Layer changing MIDI

Post by Credo »

joyof60 wrote:Thanks, that may indeed be my problem, I am using a Piano layer that I have with several of the FX8's piano voices layered and mixed so there is probably a lot of the polyphony right there. The MIDI voice that is separate although still controlled by the FX8 will need additional polyphony as well, am I right? That would explain the MIDI voices to not sound right if I'm thinking correctly. Sometime I get carried away and do not realize the actual limitations.
Thanks so much!
Whatever you're doing in your softsynths on the PC should NOT effect the F8 unless you've got an unintended MIDI loopback to the Fantom. To double check this, make sure your DAW is set to only send that track's MIDI performance output to your VSTi.

If you're playing the keyboard live when your problem pops up...make sure that local mode is OFF on the Fantom, OR, that 'through' mode is OFF in the DAW. The key is, you don't want a situation where whatever you're playing live on the keyboard sounds once, gets sent to the DAW, then looped back to the Fantom to sound again only a few milliseconds later. It this is your problem, then yes, you'll run out of polyphony FAST, and also probably get other strange sounds due to tones 'double triggering'.

What happens if you just 'mute' the softsynth in your DAW? How does the Fantom sound then?
joyof60
Posts: 21
Joined: 15:27, 16 June 2013

Re: Performance Layer changing MIDI

Post by joyof60 »

Thanks again Credo.
I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. The sounds from the Fanthom never suffer, only the softsynth voices from the DAW. If I'm not playing live should I not enable a MIDI output on the softsynth? And I'm looking for the "Local" to be able to turn it off. Just out of curiosity, is there a tone that has the least amount of voices (polyphony) used, so I could use that one and turn the volume off when playing a softsynth by itself? If I understand correctly, the Fanthom is going to use available polyphony to voice each, so I would need the least used on the Fanthom in order to get the true sound of the softsynth correct? Is there a way to disable the voices on the Fanthom for such occasion? Thanks again for your help!
Credo
Posts: 62
Joined: 10:38, 29 January 2015

Re: Performance Layer changing MIDI

Post by Credo »

joyof60 wrote:Thanks again Credo.
I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. The sounds from the Fanthom never suffer, only the softsynth voices from the DAW. If I'm not playing live should I not enable a MIDI output on the softsynth? And I'm looking for the "Local" to be able to turn it off. Just out of curiosity, is there a tone that has the least amount of voices (polyphony) used, so I could use that one and turn the volume off when playing a softsynth by itself? If I understand correctly, the Fanthom is going to use available polyphony to voice each, so I would need the least used on the Fanthom in order to get the true sound of the softsynth correct? Is there a way to disable the voices on the Fanthom for such occasion? Thanks again for your help!
I think I must have misunderstood and had your issues reversed in my mind. I thought the F8 was the part with corrupted sound at the point you decided to switch it from 'patch mode' to 'performance mode' and run multiple parts on it VIA MIDI through a DAW, and that the softsynth was working fine.

Does the softsynth sound OK if you turn the F8 master volume all the way down, mute it in the DAW, or temporarily disconnect the F8 from the computer?

Isolate and clarify which part of your mix is not sounding as you intend by soloing each and every track of your mix one by one in the DAW. If they all sound OK when you go through and solo each track, then bring everything back up, make sure none of the DAW MIDI or Instrument tracks are 'armed' for recording or monitoring, and try it again.

The trick is to use a process of elimination to figure out exactly which channel on your DAW doesn't sound as you intend. If everything sounds OK when soloed, then work in reverse. To do this, you unmute everything, play your project, and while it's playing mute/unmute tracks until the 'issue' drops out of the mix.

Once you know exactly what channel(s) are corrupted, you can then go through a system of trouble shooting for that channel. There are all kinds of things it could be! I.E. You might have accidentally put an unintended effect insert on the track. You might have accidentally set up an unintended MIDI or audio feedback loop. A plugin/softsynth might simply be corrupted or set up wrong. There might be something in the MIDI track itself that is telling the softsynth to do something crazy. If you are using an SPDIF connection to hook up your F8, then it might well be that you've set the DAW and softsynths to work in a different clock rate from the SPDIF (If using SPDIF, make sure everything in the DAW is set to clock at 44.1khz, and make sure that the F8 is the master audio clock). The list of possibilities go on and on.

As for "Local" mode and what that means, you'd have to check out your manual (I don't have an F8 to help you out more on specifics): What I mean by this, is that workstation keyboards like the F8 usually have a Local On mode, or a matrix of some sort for choosing what all can control the workstation's patches/parts (the local keyboard, external MIDI data, or both).

When Local Mode is enabled, pressing a key always plays back at least one part or patch on the workstation whether it is sending any MIDI output over the USB or MIDI port, or not. Typically, when one uses a workstation like this as a controller with a DAW, he would turn this F8 'Local Mode" off, and send MIDI into the DAW with a 'through mode' enabled on the DAW that loops the MIDI stream for any 'armed' and relevant DAW channels back to the workstation when he plays keys ('armed' means you've made a DAW track active for possible recording, or live monitoring). Having Local Mode OFF would result in workflow where the only time the workstation generates tones is if MIDI is coming into the F8 from some external source (or possibly from its built in sequencer if that is running).

When Local Mode is OFF on a workstation like the F8, it more or less seperates the internal synth/sampler engine into a separate entity from the MIDI Controller aspects of the unit. I.E. it turns the keys, sliders, mod wheel, etc, into a dedicated MIDI Controller that only sends events out through the USB or MIDI output.

Some workstations have a single central or global LOCAL ON/OFF switch, while others can use a more complex matrix for this when in 'performance mode'. I.E. Out of the 16 channels per port a workstation might have, you might be able to enable/disable the local mode for EACH CHANNEL one by one (and sometimes you do this through a setting that seems to be part of the workstation's built in sequencer engine).

Sometimes people forget to disable the Local Mode and start working in a DAW, which can result in an extra layer or patch sounding when he plays the keyboard. The 'local' one, as well as the through MIDI coming from the DAW.

Also, workstations like the F8 can have their internal sequencer 'sync up' with external sequencers/DAWS as either the Master or Slave. Sometimes people forget to disable the built in workstation sequencer when they start up a DAW and don't want or need the workstation sequencer. In this case, hitting start or record on the DAW might inadvertently start the workstation's built in sequencer playing as well and lead to unintended results. It doesn't sound to me like this is your problem, but it's something to be aware might happen to you at some point.
joyof60
Posts: 21
Joined: 15:27, 16 June 2013

Re: Performance Layer changing MIDI

Post by joyof60 »

Thanks again Credo,
Let me try to clarify as I may have misled, ... The Fanthom is connected to the audio interface/DAW via MIDI and analog input. I am only playing the softsynth via MIDI, no Fanthom voices via MIDI, only Fanthom voices via analog input. If while playing the softsynth, and the Fanthom is in performance mode, the softsynth really suffers. If I play the softsynth while the Fanthom is in patch mode the softsynth sounds fine. It makes sense to me that the added polyphony burden from the performance mode onto the hardware of the Fanthom could cause this as you suggested earlier. I have found some basic piano patches that seem to work ok as a polyphony reduction so to speak. I was curious as to if there may be a patch that is really simple in terms of polyphonic usage so to free up more room for the voices of the softsynth.

Now the Local aspect, I'll have to read your post a few hundred more times to try and grasp what you are telling me. I rarely use the Fanthom voices "MIDI'd" into the DAW, the analog input is just easier for me to understand, and seems to work ok for my needs. Thanks again so much for your time, I will reread a bunch and try to grab ahold of what I can!
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