N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Forum for JUNO STAGE
synthman_ds
Posts: 6
Joined: 03:00, 12 July 2008

N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by synthman_ds »

How could Roland make a performance synth geared for "stage" and "master studio" controller use and not include an aftertouch enabled keybed?!!!

Let's see, it has 76 keys (bravo!), performance knobs, a d-beam, input AND output for backtracks, LED AND LCD screens, arpeggiator, expansion bays, input for microphone but NO AFTERTOUCH? No aftertouch? Someone please tell me this is a typo in the specs.

If this is true, it's a gross oversight and a definate deal breaker for many including me who wouldn't think twice about getting one. No aftertouch on a stage and master keyboard controller? C'mon Roland. I'd fire the project lead for such a crucial omission.
b3keys
Posts: 192
Joined: 04:21, 6 July 2005
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by b3keys »

In keeping with the tradition of "Juno" synths, aftertouch was never a feature of this series. So, no aftertouch is available for the Juno Stage.

BTW, I completely agree with you!
synthman_ds
Posts: 6
Joined: 03:00, 12 July 2008

Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by synthman_ds »

It may be keeping with tradition, but when you realized they put so many great features for performing and controlling then leave out perhaps the most important feature of all on a keyboard, it leave you scratching you head in bewilderment. Its nothing short of absurd considering the target of this board is geared towards performing and controlling. They even put "Stage" in the name!

I would have bought it substituting any combination of the other features for a 76 velocity/afterouch controller. Without it, it's practically useless as a performance controller for studio or stage and takes it out the pro market for any serious musician who performs and composes.

Most 20 year old synths have afterouch. You can buy a Emu battery operated controller for a couple of hundred bucks with aftertouch. It makes no sense.
JunoJohn
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Location: Washington DC

Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by JunoJohn »

Back in 1985, the Alpha Juno 2 had a channel aftertouch sensitive keybed. But unless you count its stepbrother, the SynthPlus 80, it's the only Juno with this feature.

Otherwise, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you guys have said!

Two thoughts:

1) The "no aftertouch" verdict is an assumption based upon Roland's failure to mention aftertouch on the Juno-Stage specifications webpage. That's a reasonable assumption; but still just an assumption. We'll know for sure when the manual is released.

2) You'll probably be able to route the D-Beam or Control Pedal to channel aftertouch. Of course, that's not the same thing as having a pressure sensitive keybed.
tompabes
Posts: 326
Joined: 11:35, 22 October 2006

Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by tompabes »

Get a Fantom-X7 or G7: those are the performance-oriented keyboards with all the features you are looking for.
Are they too expensive? Are they too heavy? Are they too big? Ok, then find another keyboard (whatever brand!) with the same features, same price, same weight and size of the Juno Stage, and with aftertouch. What? You couldn't find it? Mmmmh... strange, isn't it? ;)
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raccoon
Posts: 475
Joined: 15:48, 14 January 2008

Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by raccoon »

alesis fusion.
i haven't seen it in retail, only online

but finally, i saw one live in person and it's got so much in it, it's ridiculous
but a lot of people, including myself, got scared by some scary stories about its unstable OS and other bugs.

still, spec by spec it impresses...
tompabes
Posts: 326
Joined: 11:35, 22 October 2006

Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by tompabes »

you're right, I forgot the Fusion... but it does not have 76 keys: it comes with 61 standard keys or 88 weighted keys.
Anyway I have to admit that the fusion *is* a keyboard with aftertouch in a price range where Roland/Korg/Yamaha usually do not offer it.

There's also the the Triton TR 76, but I think it can't compare to the new keyboards (it's a bit old now), and the touch is terrible even if it has aftertouch (so you always have to accept some compromises...)

Anyway, here in europe the HD6 sells for 1250 eur and the HD8 for 1400 eur. Let's wait and see... I don't think the price of the Juno Stage will be over 1100 eur... the Juno-G sells for 900 eur, MO6 for even less, Triton TR76 for less than 1100.
Yahama MO8 and MM8 (both 88 weighted) cost eur 1400 and 950. So they cannot think to sell the Stage for more than 1100 euros, and I think that the price of the Juno Stage will be lower than the Fusion 6HD. You will have to choose between 61 keys with aftertouch or 76 keys without. There's always some comprimise!

The point is that there is not any manufacturer that will give you everything it can in this price range (except for Alesis, but we know that the price of the Fusion is so low because of its bad reputation, whether true or assumed), otherwise they would never sell their motifs or fantoms that cost much more.

A performance oriented keyboard like the Juno Stage, with 76 keys and a big wavetable with quality sounds is much appreciated and I would not complain because it does not have aftertouch. If you really need everything, I didn't change my mind: get a Fantom! :)
synthman_ds
Posts: 6
Joined: 03:00, 12 July 2008

Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by synthman_ds »

Sure, I understand there are other boards that do have aftertouch - a Fantom Fa-76 for instance has aftertouch a d-beam, arp etc. I have a QS7. It's 76 keys with aftertouch. It's compact and lightweight too.

My point is if Roland is going to make a keyboard gear specifically for "performing and controlling" then not having a aftertouch keybed defeats the purpose for many serious musicians who gig and will use it as a dedicated master controller which is what this keyboard is marketed for.

Performing a synth lead or melody live or in the sudio is a pretty common aspect for a keyboard player, not being able to engage vibrato, filler cutoff, etc. through aftertouch really sucks the life out of player expression. I'm sorry but it's an inexcusable omission in my opinion, if the specs hold true.

Aftertouch on a master controller is a far more important requirement than inputs and outputs for a mp3 player - you can do this just as easily through a line mixer on stage as I do. Sure having a d-beam is great, but as far as itemizing it in order of importance for a master controller, it falls behind:

Number of Keys
Keyboard feel and action
Velocity and aftertouch
Mod/Pitch controllers

AT is a primary, foundational and crucial feature for performing and controlling. Arpeggiator, extra LED, extral usb MIDI input, mp3 inputs, vocoder are all secondary features.

I'm just saying not having an aftertouch keybed will be a deal breaker for so many potential musicans who perform or are looking for a master controller. If Roland is going to put so many great features in one board for performing, then why stop just short of ideal. It's like building a great house without a foundation. Remember this boards target market is for stage performance and controlling. Roland touts how the keys were designed longer just for playing! Without aftertouch, it may as well be a sound module.

To be quite honest, I would even pay more just for the inclusion of aftertouch (so long as the keybed desn't feel like crap), without AT it's not even a consideration. This board without aftertouch is for people looking for a secondary keyboard or squarely in the consumer based, non-pro market, or non master controller use.
tompabes
Posts: 326
Joined: 11:35, 22 October 2006

Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by tompabes »

"This board without aftertouch is for people looking for a secondary keyboard or squarely in the consumer based, non-pro market, or non master controller use."

Of course! Finally you got it... How many times do I have to say it? ;-)
I would add "or for people who cannot afford a Fantom".
The Stage will NOT be a pro keyboard. The case will be made of plastic, the components (sliders, knobs, connectors) will not have the same quality of the Fantom, the keyboard will not have aftertouch and you can be sure it won't have the same touch and quality of a Fantom, and all of this because the Junos ARE NOT PRO KEYBOARDS. The Juno-G is not a pro keyboard, and the Stage will be neither. I have a Juno-G, trust me. You are evaluating the Stage as if it was a professional level keyboard, but it isn't. The stage is not a pro keyboard, and IT IS NOT PRICED LIKE A PRO KEYBOARD.
If you need a pro keyboard, with all the master controller functions, aftertouch, decent touch, metal case, quality hardware etc etc get the X7 or G7, but you have to pay for it.
I really can't understand your point, so let's stop it here! :)
ozrufus
Posts: 20
Joined: 20:52, 22 November 2006

Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by ozrufus »

"This board without aftertouch is for people looking for a secondary keyboard or squarely in the consumer based, non-pro market, or non master controller use."

There are a lot of people in this category who are still high quality musicians that want and need great value in a board AND don't necessarily need or use aftertouch.

Bottom line is Roland (or any other manufacturer) can't design and market instruments to so many individual sets of wants/needs. This is why they have to market different tiers of instruments with different applications. It would be great, though, to custom spec out our own boards with sounds, features, etc. instead of having to pay for all the junk that we don't need. They could name it the "Roland Utopia."
synthman_ds
Posts: 6
Joined: 03:00, 12 July 2008

Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by synthman_ds »

You guys saw the videos right, you heard the pitch. Tiering price/features is one thing. Making an instrument geared directly for live performance and master controller use as the Juno-Stage is and not including a crucial primary feature for that purpose is a big blunder, it single handedly reduces the market reach drastically and fails at it's designed intent. It changes who will buy it and the reason for buying it dramatically. This is now for a beginner/home market, not someone who gigs or studio use. Theres the rub, the beginner market doesn't need mp3 backtrack input, longer keys for playing, master controller features, 76 keys or pay 1350. It's too much synth for a beginner and falls short by 1 key feature for live/studio use.

I'm all for price/feature balance. Roland could have substuted any of the secondary optional features in it's place and still accomplish this instruments goal. Without aftertouch is misses it's primary purpose as a stage/studio controller synth which is clearly its intent. Thats the point.

You can get a QS6.2 for 599 and its a pro keyboard. The original Junos were pro keyboards, a DX7II with nowhere near the features of this board is still a pro keyboard. The Juno-Stage is categorically a pro-keyboard.

A non-pro keyboard would be a psr whatever, a casio and and the garbage boards you find at walmart, bestbuy with built in speakers.

I'm telling you, as soon as a sales person tells target buyers this keyboard doesn't have aftertouch people are going to say "let me get this straight, this board is geared for performing live and master controller usage with "stage" in the name and dedicated master controller features, but it doesn't have aftertouch? Righttttt..." They will look elsewhere in droves. Of all the potential feature to excude, AT was the wrong choice by miles. Where talking about aftertouch! This is a common standard feature on keyboards for over 20 years!
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muziksculp
Posts: 72
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Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by muziksculp »

Feels like Roland is trying very hard to lower the standards for performance keyboards !

A live performance (PRO) keyboard with no after-touch ? What's going to be their next genius move ? Maybe a Juno Stage Pro (with after-touch !)

It's like they have design-meetings to make sure they screw something up, by omitting an important feature, or reducing the amount, or building cheesier versions, and always using pricing as a very convenient, and good excuse for doing so.
synthman_ds
Posts: 6
Joined: 03:00, 12 July 2008

Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by synthman_ds »

Yeah, if the specs hold, this board would have been better served either with less keys and features not geared towards stage perforamnce/studio use as the Juno d and G were or go for it and include a aftertouch enabled keybed and increasing the price accordingly or elimate a few secondary features. Then this board hits it's intended design without question. (How much could this really cost, as I said Emu makes AT enabled controllers for a few hundred so no excuse there.)

As it stands, it's stuck in pergatory really not benefiting any specific market. Also, there along way to go price point wise until you hit Fantom-G pricing. Pro Synth prices are all over the place from less than grand to 3Gs on average so they can definately make the necessary adjustments before launch. Roland reps, I hope you are qued into this discussion.

Oh, and one last point about why AT is a necessary feature - almost all other synths (and even the Fantom sounds found in the Juno-stage) have programmed AT effects on many of the patches that you wouldn't be able to take advantage of on a non-AT enabled keybed. Unforgivable!
RobJuno
Posts: 315
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Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by RobJuno »

On tompabes criticism of the Junos not being PRO keyboards...

I'm for once going to say a few positive things, particularly about the keyboard feel. But after a moan, I can't help myself...

I've had need to flag up semingly endless niggles with my Juno G... at this very moment it is back with Roland for a repair... hopefully I'll get it back with an LCD screen that I don't have to adjust with every mode/edit-page change, a mod wheel that isn't kicking out random control values as if a white noise generator has been secretly put in the electronics, and hopefully the ability to hear through my monitors my PC's brain calculating its next move - when the juno is connected via usb midi and audio connections simultaneously - will be gone. Fingers crossed. (So how good IS the build quality?)

BUT... despite no aftertouch on the Juno G, I think the actual feel is particularly solid. Not weighted, no, but then it's not a piano. But certainly not a light and flimsy feel at all. And certainly not as loose and cheap feeling as many many keybeds of even very expensive PRO synths i've had my hands on in music shops. Before I bought my Juno G i spent a while comparing the keyboard feel with the fantom X, i really struggled to feel a huge amount of difference. After purchasing it i went back and could tell a difference - the X's keys are slightly bigger to start with - but on the whole the fantom doesn't feel any more solid like its gonna stand up to anything the juno wont. In fact I believe there is more lateral 'play' in the fantom's keys.

And then the Juno Stage has bigger keys than the G... so I'd assume solid and with reasonable feel.

I wished too that the Junos had aftertouch. I've never had it, so don't quite know what i am missing. But from all the synths in shops i have actually manage to try aftertouch, i've not felt a quality implementation of it yet... especially the Korg TR's. Not sure i ever did try the fantom x for this though.

And I will say there are some top sounds onboard, including many identical to those coming out still on the new fantom G! Yet I'm little irritated (as someone remarks on srx issues elsewhere) at the proportion of samples that are drums/noises rather than pitched instruments!!! And frankly, I think the bass factor of all sounds - synths and basses - is entirely lacking... compared with soft synths - even including what i've achieved with the Korg M1 softsynth - which given that it just presents the original ancient pcm samples, raises my eyebrows as to why the bass end of the juno sounds thin and lacks pitch definition on so many sounds!

See I ranted again! LOL
cyclops
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Location: Volos, Greece

Re: N0 Aftertouch!!!! N0 Aftertouch???

Post by cyclops »

The lack of aftertouch in this kind of instrument is at least a big mistake.
They could raise up the price a bit and give the aftertouch capability. It's elemetary for today's keyboards to sport aftertouch-enabled keybeds.
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