Piano Mode volume issues

[jt558990]

I have been having problems with the output volume of the Piano Mode on my JS.
During a gig the Synth, strings and pads all cut through the mix lovely, but nearly all the Piano patches sound 'wooly'. I run through to the desk in stereo when I can, and I have tried all sorts to boost the Volume on the Piano Mode but i'm still not happy with the sound. Any one else have this problem?

[francoran]

I suppose that you don't set any other effect on the mixer(reverb, etc.) but only those in the JS and have already tried to set a brighter equalization. Me too have noticed that "wooly" sound on the piano very often expecially when the guitarist is playng in the same range of frequencies. Some patches like JD-800 Piano and even the first 2 or 3 GM presets sound better when I play with the band. I can't help you sorry, I heard that Juno Stage has not very good D/A converters and I hope that our problem is not that one. Maybe someone more expert here will give us an explanation.

[specialplant]

I often had the same problem with various Roland piano samples, especially the sound often called 'Ultimate Piano' to be found in the Juno Stage and Sonic Cell (derived from the Fantom X). We often discuss this issue in a German forum, the more realistic a sample is, the higher is the danger that it sounds a bit muddy and doesn't cut through the mix well. The other sample which feeds the 'German' or 'European piano' of the Juno is older (from the session board of 1996), but easier to use in a band context. The very unrealistic JD800 sample indeed cuts through the mix best, but sounds synthetic. I think the only thing to slightly improve it is to use an MFX effect as an equalizer and enhance the higher frequencies. I don't think the D/A converters play a big role, the original ultimate piano sound from the Fantom X also has this indirect character. IMO, the Yamaha Motif pianos, and also the Jupiter/Integra SN piano, achieve a good balance between realism and ability to cut through the mix. For the Juno, you could try the SRX11, but you have to edit it, too, by MFX equalizer and maybe by changing the velocity zones so that the forte samples are triggered earlier.

[francoran]

Thank you specialplant for your estimation of JS, I was almost going to sell it and buying a used fantom x, but then I thought that I would have not solved all the problems with the JS in a so simply way, like you say, because to have the right sound that you like, sometimes you'll have to work it, not to mention that with the fantom now I should start again to make all the performances that have already done in JS.
Talking about pianos to stay IT I would like to have a midifile of the German or European piano already treated with better values of velocity zones and MFX equalizer or at least a description of how to set the parameters, better both, the MDF and description :-), it could be a terrific start point for beginners like I am.

[francoran]

I have been having problems with the output volume of the Piano Mode on my JS.
During a gig the Synth, strings and pads all cut through the mix lovely, but nearly all the Piano patches sound 'wooly'. I run through to the desk in stereo when I can, and I have tried all sorts to boost the Volume on the Piano Mode but i'm still not happy with the sound. Any one else have this problem?

Here is in the attachment the ConcertPiano patch with Enhancer MFX instead of Equalizer, I find it gives the sound more brightness, but you can also try with other setting of the equalizer as specialplant suggest. I will play with the band on september so I can't check the sound soon. Let me Know if you get some sharp pianos

[jt558990]

Thanks so much for this guys. I've been using the JD800 piano patch for some time now because, like you say, it cuts through the mix better than the others. But I can't help feel that I am missing out by using such a synthetic piano patch. Thank you for your advice on using the MFX Enhancer, that is something I will certainly try. The Concert Piano patch certainly sounds 'brighter' using it Francoran. I too am playing again in September and I will put together a few patches to try out at the gig. As you know, it's only when you play live, and with the rest of the band that this problem becomes an issue.
Happy gigging guys, keep in touch.

[francoran]

Is there someone that has already experimented good pianos that really cut the mix? At the moment the only ones that seem to play better in a band contest are JD800 (very synthetic) and some GM presets... WE CAN GET NO SATISFACTION :-)

[commando]

I constructed a User Tab by blending four patches and then storing it on its own User number. I also added this to my Favourite bank and call it up whenever I need a piano sound with more grunt and attack.
IT IS ALSO ESSENTIAL, every time you switch on, to go into Menu / System / Keyboard Control / Velocity Sensitivity. Index down to the Velocity and change the value up and back down again. If you don't do this, the JS will not acknowledge your preferred Velocity setting and will still sound dull and flat. Its a software glitch. I run my Velocity at +42.

004 German Level85 L+R Reverb 20 Cut-off+4 Resonance+4 Attack-5 Release-3 Decay+4
006 So True Level127 L+R Reverb 20 Cut-off+4 Resonance+4 Attack-5 Release-3 Decay-4
025 JD-800 Level85 Pitch+1 Reverb 20 Cut-off+4 Resonance+4 Attack-5 Release-3 Decay-4
001 88Stage Level90 L+R Reverb 15 Cut-off+4 Resonance+4 Attack-5 Release-3 Decay-4

This combo cuts through the mix better and has an earthiness in the bass notes. It sounds bright and confident. You might want to adjust the volume balances to suit your particular needs.

[francoran]

Be careful with the polyphony,
when you play four patches in layer with 4 tones in each patch, you will have 64 notes every time you pick a key and you can only get to 128 :-)
I remember was very satisfied with my old Roland JV90 and a Piano patch made of just a single (1) tone, I didn't need anymore about ac. pianos.
About the issue that JS doesn't keep the memory system it's really a shame, a brand like Roland had to solve the problem :-(

[francoran]

Sorry, I was wrong about the poliphony.
Four tones multiplied 4 patches makes 16 not 64, so you can play 8 keys together before going out of the range.

[commando]

The type of amplification equipment you use on stage also has a huge influence on the sound. I use two Roland KC550's, running in stereo plus two more stereo signals blended through the PA system at a lower volume level, to give a nice spread.
The KC550 gives a bright sound which also help to cut through the mix, although the more authentic sound comes from the PA blend via our QSC KW153 powered speakers.
Guitar amps do not sound good with synthesisers as a general rule. Their tone circuits are too coloured and tailored to the specific needs of the guitar, whether bass, rhythm or lead. Even the KC550 sounds coloured compared to headphones or a good hi-fi system but it works well on stage.
It would be interesting to know what amps other folk use.

[francoran]

......
IT IS ALSO ESSENTIAL, every time you switch on, to go into Menu / System / Keyboard Control / Velocity Sensitivity. Index down to the Velocity and change the value up and back down again. If you don't do this, the JS will not acknowledge your preferred Velocity setting and will still sound dull and flat. Its a software glitch. I run my Velocity at +42.....

Setting the velocity sens at +42 it really improves the piano sounds in the mix, when I tried it the first time it seemed to me I was playng a better different keyboard, not JS, you neither need to adjust most of the piano sounds anymore. The only problem for me with that velocity sens is the difficulty to play another sound in layer at a different value of velocity sens. For example, if I set a brass impact sound on a zone where I am playng strings and want that brass only at +63 of velocity sens, I have to touch the keys very very lightly when I don't want the brass. So I decided for a middle way, let's tell about +20, +23 and I try to get some more brightness by the MFX, cutoff and filter.
About the software glitch have we got any chance for an upgrade?

[commando]

I am pleased that you found an improvement in piano cut by using +42 sensitivity. You might be able to reduce the sensitivity of the layered brass by individually adjusting the "velocity sens" of that part, whilst still leaving the global sensitivity at around +42.
Go into the User Performance that you have created. Double press 'Enter'. Press "Partview". Press "Page Down" into "Partview 2". Press "Keyboard". Index across to "Velo" (Part velocity sensitivity offset).
Try a positive value on your brass part. This might reduce the sensitivity of the velocity just for that part, but leave the piano sounds nice and bright.
Different patches behave in different ways to "Velo" values. I tried it on one of my own multi-part User Performances and +25 or so seemed to tame the brass sensitivity. Experiment for yourself. I hope you find this helpful. Let us know your conclusions. Regards.

[francoran]

Thank you commando,
I knew that already but even at +63 the brass always plays even with a very very soft touch of the keys. But now you have made me thinking..., so in edit patch I have raised the Velo Range Lower at a value that I can control better with my touch. It seems going fine and I can set again at +42 the Velo Sense in the System menu, to me it looks like having changed in a better keyboard. Thanks again!