Septimo - "the workstation is dead"

[dbijoux]

Aha, guitar is my first instrument! This could explain why I find the $10 instruments(read:apps) silly.

I'm starting to develop a conclusion, a number of them actually. For instance, take this example that was brought up recently in another thread; the Juno and Fantoms lack an arpeggiator comparable to the Motif. For this I need to sequence every parts manually. In reality, I rarely use MIDI for anything else so the Gi is not a huge loss for me, but there are certain instances such as this that I find having a sequencer onboard invaluable.

What I am noticing is the case here, for the better or worse, is that Roland hasn't been reaching the bar they themselves set in prior generations. Intentional or not, this inevitably has left us with holes in the technology we've grown so accustomed too.

I'm really glad RobJuno said composers as it has always been my assumption that workstations have always been geared exactly to this segment of modern music production.

I have to add, this thread is getting more interesting now that we are talking about music again.

Obviously, the whole discussion is crossing boundaries between production and performance, but adding yet another device to the kit as the solution; this is the same as saying workstations were a misstep from the beginning. It should also be blatantly obvious this is a step backwards, irregardless if you think checking your email on your sequencer is a gift from the gods or not.

I think, if Roland would have not named this the Gi, so much of this confusion could have been avoided. Instead of wondering, "is the workstation dead," we'd simply say the Juno-Gi is not a workstation at all. I wonder, is the state of the Fantom the more ominous question on all of our minds.

Le synth es morte, vive le synth!

[Mystic38]

of course it is a step backwards..

Today, I take Juno G to a friends house and record.. I fix mistakes right there by punch-in over a measure and we play it back.. I carry one box.. When i get home if the music was good it gets dumped into sonar on a screen i can see and use.

tomorrow, I take a Gi to a friends house, plus my laptop (or if i am hip, my ipad) I spend hours learning the sequencer software (on a laptop display 1/4 size needed to view a sequencer) .. I dont spend time playing, and then spend forever making the DAW talk correctly to the Gi .. Roland does not even offer controller interfaces for its own keyboards and its own software, and the .ins files are real hard to find.. Then i record.. no I dont.. I have midi sync issues, my buddy gets hammered while i figure out what MMC is and we give up making music.. I carry two boxes and frustration... there is zero ease of use in this system.

Yup progress indeed.. and if this is a crusade you are on Art, it is you who is out of touch with the home studio recording market, not Rob or the other Juno G owners..

and if you were as right as you think you are, then the most popular board today would be the S70XS, no sequencer, good controller interface..better keybed and $300 cheaper than an XS6 and $800 cheaper than an XS7... yet funny how it doesnt sell well at all

[dbijoux]

How come that a $15 app on my iPod touch can do more than a $1500 groovebox did 10 years ago?

Two words: Quality, Connectivity

For the matter, the comparison of iPod touch to a groovebox is irrelevant as production standards today far exceed both. Obviously, this isn't to say good music wasn't made back then but it's not the same level today.

I'm sure Apple would like to be as eponymous to music production as the Atari was, but Pro-Tools beat them to that punch.

[dbijoux]

MIDI sync you say?

I also had this exact question, what am I going to do about sync with the Juno-Gi? At this point, the digital recorder becomes useless because of midi delay? Will there be some sort of latency compensation for the digital recorder or will this be one of those dirty little secrets you don't find out until after the return period has ended?

Well you're right Mystic38 and sync is a huge(yet often overlooked) challenge in home studio.

[Septimo]

The same thing that happened with the VS-studios is what is happening to the workstation, and Roland was smart enough to halt that project a while back.. Why? Because of software... The V-studios were awesome.. You could touch everything, it was solid... When they went to 24 tracks, everyone was sure and positive that 48 tracks was just around the corner.. There were us who was buy them for portability and, WOW, what a nice sound that came out of them.. We could clearly see what would have made the product better through an OS update... But did they? only to add extra effects and that was gonna cost a small fortune... They made their appearance for about 9 or 10 years and they dipped... No one including me could see those products discontinued.. Nor could they convince me that roland would be dumb enough to discontinue them... How could they be discontinued when they were so invaluable to me?

Roland didn't care that I at that time was not willing to go software and that was only wanting to use the VS1880 exclusively.. They went on and did their thing made two or three more models and halted these products all together.. Only us older guys who started on cassette four tracks where the ones who cared.. And although it might have been a lot of us, it was not enough to keep them in production.. They are looking to their forward, not yours..

In 2004 I went to Cubase SX, then and only then could I see why Roland VS series could not compete in this market and stay in production...

Only instruments will be made with all the flexibilities for PC production, and since Live you don;t need a WS, Roland is not missing out on anything.. With less programing and less processing to deal with now maybe Roland can concentrate on making the instrument better for live and actually making better realistic sounds for their keyboards...

(Added Edit)

I'd like to add that in 2000 when I bought the 1880, the sales guy tried to warn me that these products were already obsolete at their release date and that I should go the PC or MAC route for all the money I was spending, but me seeing the name ROLAND, I basically looked at him like he didn't have a clue and made my purchase.. And for a while I was laughing at him as i thought it would only get better...

[Artemiy]

Septimo talks sense, sees the light!

[dbijoux]

Forgive me if I am mistaken, aren't the V-Studios exactly the same thing as Cubase, minus the control surface?

Only instruments will be made with all the flexibilities for PC production, and since Live you don;t need a WS, Roland is not missing out on anything..

You aren't reading everything, tell me how many composers outside of edm are using Ableton Live?

Are they going the way of the dinosaurs too?

[Septimo]

Forgive me if I am mistaken, aren't the V-Studios exactly the same thing as Cubase, minus the control surface?

No way.. Cubase Is much more capable than a VS-studio, man... What you can do in minutes in Cubase takes you hours on a Vstudio... I still don't mind it for recording vocals if i had to, but for editing and processing, cubase or any major DAW is 1000X's more fluid... VS is way too clunky and S L O W ! ! !.. And to make a cd of your song? forget it...

You aren't reading everything, tell me how many composers outside of edm are using Ableton Live?

Most Dj's i know use abelton live for editing and looping.. From what i hear, Abelton live is doing well for what it's supposed to be.. Not sure if that is what you are referring to though..

[dbijoux]

Yeah, Ableton looks like magic for producer dj's and it's also got some powerful tools for sound design with Max/MSP for Live.

but, you said..

since Live you don;t need a WS,

I've never seen a DJ on stage with a workstation.

As for Cubase vs V-Station, exactly. The problem with your argument is that it doesn't translate well to a keyboard workstation vs keyboard w/o workstation comparison. I think I know what you are trying to say, but it's up for debate whether or not a DAW is faster. In fact, I'd say exactly the opposite is true.

There's something missing in this discussion and that's all the other people here who use their workstations to write music everyday. At this point, I'm not talking about producing a CD, there is no debate a DAW is necessary somewhere along the line.

[MeNotU]

The only thing I see missing is that when you put a truth to these people you get no reply. It seems some have decided the future with no regard to the real practicalities.

The I-pad can only run one app at a time. How you going to run a sequencer along with soft synths, samples, pads, even documents?

If Roland ain't gonna produce synths because they are outclassed by soft synths, even though this has been happening for 15 years - what are they going to do?

Computers and i-pads become obsolete, synths never have.

Their posts are just becoming a blur of talk, no reality.

I hope they don't think they have a monopoly on being right? That would be sad.

[Artemiy]

MeNotU, unless you didn't know this, every one has his own reality and his own truth.

Every musician will want his own setup and he will create it according to his needs, his preferences and his budget.

I do not claim that there is a right or wrong way to go about music production - as long as you love what you do and the results are interesting.

[Parsifal]

Maybe kids don't want a synth from Santa but musicians do. I do know that Vangelis was a kid some time ago... there may not be a "big market" for synths and they may become niche instruments. But don't say that musicians don't need instruments on stage anymore. What is a band? In the acoustic era, a band was piano, acoustic bass, trumpet (or sax), drums and - maybe a guitar (acoustic). Then the piano was replaced by a keyboard (synth), acoustic bass by electric bass, guitar went electric and amplified, brass sections were dismantled because of their availability on the keyboard, drums - sometimes the same, so on and so forth. Why did all that happened? Because the original instruments were bulkier and heavy to lug around. The "music instruments revolution" may continue, I agree on that, but I think there's no big reason today to assume that present musical instruments will disappear and we will all get our Macs on stage and emulate music with the mouse, trackball or the D-beam. Music instrument manufacturers design instruments for music PLAYERS. Not for music creators. Yes, sometimes you may (or you want) to create music but most of the time you PLAY it. So - that's why such enterprises design and create music instruments for PLAYERS. Because there will always be music PLAYERS around, no matter what nowaday kids want for Christmas.
- a synth will always be on market, because players want it, not wannabe composer kids. okay, maybe not deep synthesis synths but - insert your average rompler - will
- a workstation may also be seen, because - as someone said it - it's not THAT expensive to throw a sequencer in the package and people - even dedicated players - are always happy to get more for their bucks.

[I AM]

"I do not claim that there is a right or wrong way to go about music production - as long as you love what you do and the results are interesting. "
+1
why accoustic pianos are not dead these days? there are digital pianos... cheaper and sounding so great))

because acoustic pianos sounds different and some may say better

[BillArnette]

"I think, if Roland would have not named this the Gi, so much of this confusion could have been avoided. Instead of wondering, "is the workstation dead," we'd simply say the Juno-Gi is not a workstation at all. I wonder, is the state of the Fantom the more ominous question on all of our minds. "

I kind of questioned their naming the Juno-G originally. Junos were historically performance synths, not workstations. Seems to me they should have named it based on the Fantom Workstation series, since that is what it is; a Fantom Lite.

[Artemiy]

Speaking of names and branding, Apple just released a new iPod nano which is absolutely nothing like the previous model. And people started asking questions, like why it has a 2x smaller screen, no video player and no camera. It's all... complicated... sometimes.