Black and white keys - different velocity values

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Black and white keys - different velocity values

Postby skater » 18:37, 3 March 2014

I have found if I hitting the keys quickly and relative strong the black keys produce a higher velocity (about +15) than the white ones.
To achieve the same velocity even at the white keys, you have to hitting them much harder.
This makes playing piano sounds very difficult, because some keystrokes on the black keys are unnaturally loud.
Similar as described here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=33075&p=206854#p206843
Adjustments to the keyboard setup or velocity curves do not change this basic behavior.

Can anyone confirm this behavior? Is it normal or is my Juno Gi defect?
skater
 
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Re: Black and white keys - different velocity values

Postby tnicoson » 09:47, 7 March 2014

?
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Re: Black and white keys - different velocity values

Postby Gambler » 17:59, 8 March 2014

tnicoson wrote: So, for you, I don't think their is anything "wrong" with your Juno-Gi, it's just that the Juno-Gi is the wrong instrument for you.

This kind of response, phrased in a different way, could be helpful when someone was shopping for a new keyboard. Here it just sounds like "The product has no problems, you are the problem."

...

In general, the idea for adjusting velocity curves/sensitivity separately for black and white keys (or at least adding some offsets on the global level) sounds excellent. It would not require any new hardware and be useful in a variety of situations.

Specifically for Juno Gi, I don't think I have the same problem. My Gi allows me for a better control over velocity than even Kronos 61's keybed, which is considered good by many people. In fact, I prefer Gi for controlling piano sounds. But it's not like all Gis are always the same. There is always a possibility of some manufacturing or assembly defect.
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Re: Black and white keys - different velocity values

Postby skater » 16:48, 10 March 2014

Thanks for the answers.

Tnicoson, many thanks for your explanations and detailed testing.
If I understand it correctly, the behavior could therefore be quite normal.
Do not worry, overall, the Juno Gi has still plenty of other extras to keep him despite this quirk. If the behavior is normal, I could accept it.
It seems to me that the manufacturer specially downgrade some technical details, for any reasons whatsoever ...
By the way, your answer is gone?

Gambler, as I said, the behavior is not permanent, but only for fast, short and hard key strokes.
The keyboard can actually play well, so I think it's also unusual that it comes to different velocities.
Is it really true that, for example with an e-piano, the white and black keys require almost exactly the same keystroke strength to produce the sound for the higher velocity?

My seller and also the Roland Support thought that a difference could be present and an offset of 15 would still be acceptable, the statements, however, were a bit hesitant. That I must accustom myself first! I could not imagine the keyboards are made that do not produce uniform velocities.

Best regards
skater
 
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Re: Black and white keys - different velocity values

Postby skater » 09:38, 14 July 2014

Here is the final report on the subject.

After the unit has been sent to the Roland support, it came out that the behavior is normal. The man from the Support said he could understand my objections, but the difference is minimal and acceptable. It's just not a high-end device ...

My velocity settings are now real/medium/0.

Best Regards
skater
 
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Re: Black and white keys - different velocity values

Postby cabot001 » 11:42, 11 October 2014

Hi Skater,

I have recently been testing out the Roland FA-06 and it has exactly the same problem. The black notes trigger the Supernatural piano sounds with a velocity of around 15 higher than the white notes, making them stick out unacceptably. This is really obvious if you play an even chromatic scale up and down the keyboard. Strangely, there is no such problem on any of the other sounds, e.g. '76 Pure! I have reported this to Roland and I would urge you to do this as well for your Juno. A difference of 15 is totally unacceptable, even for a lower-end product.

I have found a solution by using MIDI Solutions Velocity Converters, which now allow you to program different curves for the black and white keys. This is done by turning off Local Control and inserting the Velocity Converter in a loop from MIDI out to MIDI in. By putting these curves only on MIDI channel 1, and then only using channel 1 for the Supernatural piano patches, all the sounds in the keyboard respond to velocity correctly. I have even chained together two Velocity Converters, one to tame down the too-wide dynamic response of the Supernatural piano sounds, and the other to correct the black/white key difference - the result was perfect, with the grand piano sound responding as a real grand piano does.

It's such a shame that these problems are occurring in current keyboards - they never used to. Even the Yamaha MX49/61 has black keys that play quieter than the white keys (opposite to the FA-06!), and Yamaha UK have acknowledged that there is a problem, so hopefully this will be fixed quickly with a firmware update. In the meantime, John Fast's brilliant Velocity Converter can easily provide a solution.

Regards,

David Kear
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