Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

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FatBoyJim
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Joined: 07:53, 4 May 2003
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by FatBoyJim »

This might to stir up some emotions and start this thread ablaze?

So many things have been going through my little head lately. I thought I would share some of them see and what other people around here are thinking on these as well.

What’s going on with Artemio? Obviously he is very sick. Lets say the worse case scenario comes true, will we ever know? Actually, I remember seeing his phone number in the Who Is database when I was asked to verify some information there recently and I doubt that I will be able to go but about another week before I call this number. Does he have health insurance? If not he probably is very much in debt right now because of hospital bills. If this is the case, will he ever be able to afford a Fantom-S?

What does the new Motif ES mean to the future of the Fantom-S? I am guessing that the Fantom-S was not a huge success to begin with for Roland and that the Motif ES Probably won’t help it. I don’t think that the Motif ES is the final nail in the coffin for the Fantom-S seeing as Roland likes to drive these nails in personally and it will probably be Roland that drives that final nail in as well. Lack of advertising when the Fantom-S could have been considered “hot” would have helped and getting the demo DVD to people in a timely manor, if at all, wouldn’t have hurt. The only major reason that I see people deciding to get the Fantom-S over the Motif ES now is because of what appears to be the horrible user interface of the Motif ES. I think most people will look past the horrible user interface of the Motif ES and decide that they like such thing as the sounds, multiple arpeggios, huge amount of arpeggios to choose from, huge sample wave ROM…of the Motif ES to make them look past that it is going to take them equivalent of a bachelors degree to completely figure the thing out. I personally am not one of these people but I think I have seen the way the majority of people seem to think about this.

Lets say that the Fantom-S is a monumental flop for Roland, what does that mean for us that own it? Roland started fresh with the Fantom-S and was planning on building upon it. If they do build upon it that will probably mean great things for us but if they don’t were does that leave us? Will company’s like Pro-Rec continue to further develop sounds for the Fantom-S? My guess is no. Will Roland make future OS updates? My guess is no. This will not upset me personally seeing as I am very happy with the Fantom-S but I know that there are more than a few people that want to see OS update changes. Will there ever be Akai sample support from Chicken Systems or elsewhere? If it won’t be profitable for them why would they continue to develop this and then market it? Will there be future SRX Expansion Boards? What happened to the “how to” video (not that it is needed with how easy the Fantom-S is to operate)? Where are the free patches that were supposed to be made available for download from the Roland US web site?

What happened to this forum? Last month somewhere around 40 new people joined it but only a handful has made posts. Most of us regular members are not that active any longer. I personally am busy with my “real job” and I know others are as well but to be honest I think even my posts have slowed down because the Fantom-S has very little issues so there is little to complain about and with it being so easy to figure out I have little need to come here and ask for help.

Will this forum get negative once again? Some people might get negative just because of the release of the Motif ES. Other people that purchase the Motif ES in the near future might very well join our forum to try and make this happen? If it looks like the end for the Fantom-S I am guessing that this forum will become very negative all on its own.

Where are the Pro-Rec patches? They were supposed to make a post about them early this week and now this week is almost over.

This thread is in no way an attempt to be negative and I do apologize if it reads that way. Like I said before, these are just some thoughts that have been going through my little head that I would like to hear some feedback on.

You the man, Artemio!
Phil B
Posts: 709
Joined: 05:23, 15 July 2003
Location: NYC

Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by Phil B »

On Artemio - the way he was talking about his sickness, it is definitely pretty scary. Whenever I check in to the forum, I'm always hoping to see a post from him that he's back. Not only do I want him to feel better, but I wrote a tutorial and emailed it to him, and I want him to post it!!! Seriously, I'm really hoping he's OK. Obviously, let us know what happens if you get through on the phone.

On the Motif ES - see post #12 on the "Losing Phait(h)" thread at http://forum.fantom-s.info/?action=show ... 7&s=0&e=15

On FBJ's Fears of a Fantom-S Doomsday - you like it, don't worry about it. Who cares? If we were all having major problems with it and we were getting no response from Roland, I'd be worried. But, everything is working fine. And we love the instrument. Would you be disappointed if I gave you a Stratavarius just because the company doesn't make them any more? The FS is a second generation instrument for Roland - and is a huge upgrade over the original Fantom. With the FS, you have everything you'll need in a keyboard and a workstation. Any upgrading you do in the future should not be for a hardware keyboard.

On Roland's Promoting the FS - I don't know what they did in the past, but they are certainly promoting the hell out of it now. Full page ads in all the mags and banner ads on just about every site I've been visiting. Maybe they didn't want to invest in marketing until they saw if it took off and maybe now it has. I have no idea.

And again, the ES does not have a "huge" amount of waveform ROM. 185 MB of wave ROM is a mere 6.2% of what comes standard with Spectrasonics Atmosphere, and that sells for 12% the price of an ES. It may be "huge" for a hardware sample-based synth, but that's like saying your cheesecake is spicy, for cheesecake. More is definitely better. Better quality is definitely better. But, let's not get carried away by the specs. They are both instruments, and both should be judged in their completeness.
Red Winger
Posts: 982
Joined: 03:24, 30 May 2003
Location: Cal-Y-phony-a

Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by Red Winger »

Hey FBJ,

You s*#$ disturber, you. ;-)

Couple of things:

1. Artemio -- I think we're all concerned about the lack of news, as much as anything. Frankly, as to insurance, I'm not sure how thinks work in the Ukraine these days. I don't know if medicine is still socialized there or not. However, we're all still praying for him, that's for sure.

2. Lack of posts -- While I've probably been posting as much as anyone, I've not been doing much of real note in my posts, other than chit-chat. Not adding much to the board these days, I'm afraid. The reason: real life has slammed me too hard. For the next 6 weeks or so, I'm swamped with work that pays bills, rather than work that's fun (like gigs and such...well, they may pay off a bill or two, but not all the bills ;-). I have actually not been able to even play my FS (other than sitting down to mess around on a couple of my favorite Guaraldi tunes for a few minutes here and there), much less really do any patch editing, song writing, etc. Thus, as I think I mentioned before, it's going to be a while before I actually start contributing useful stuff, like patches, samples, etc. to the board.

3. Can we stop fretting over the ES? I understand the value of comparisons between products for those that are still deciding about which to buy, but I really don't see why Terry's move to the ES and the DVD have you so up in arms about this. What is the worst that can happen? Roland decides to discontinue the FS (very unlikely, IMO). What does that mean to us? Does that make the FS a bad board? Nope. Does it mean that they'll stop making SRX boards that will be able to be used in the FS? Nope (that's their flagship expansion module!). Does it mean that there won't be sites like this one or companies like Pro-Rec willing to make patches, etc. for the FS? Nope (you're wrong there, I think....look at the fact that they offer sounds for the Fantom-76 and JV series stuff...it will just depend on sales, probably, but I'm guessing there's enough FS users out there already to make further Pro-Rec CDs worthwhile). About all it means is that there won't likely be many OS updates (not many on the horizon there anyway) and that there won't be future improved models of the FS, which you'd have to go out and buy separately anyway. Chill. The FS is a great board. I'm sure the ES is a great board. So's the Triton Studio. People are still buying the FS, though.

Anyway, sorry for the lengthy missive. I'm just getting a little tired of the constant back and forth over Triton v. FS, Motif v. FS, ES v. FS, etc.

Cheers,
RW

[Edit-- sorry if this repeats Phil's post somewhat...he and I must have been writing at the same time, but he hit post before I did.]
FatBoyJim
Posts: 1715
Joined: 07:53, 4 May 2003
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by FatBoyJim »

Nice long posts from both of you!
I am sick of the comparisons of the different workstation keyboards out there as well and really never took part in them when it did happen around here, especially the most recent discussions about them. These thoughts were nothing about comparisons to the Motif ES and were more of a way of saying that I believe that the Motif ES is going to sell very well and will probably hurt sells of the Fantom-S, which I don’t think was a big seller to begin with.
Yes, Roland is advertising the heck out of the Fantom-S now but in my opinion it is too late. I think that they could learn a lot from the marketing machine know as Yamaha.
My post earlier today congratulating Terry was for two reasons, one of which was a minor mistake on my part. The minor mistake was that I thought that he had replied to my first post yesterday about losing faith but that was my mistake because it was actually Phait that responded to that post. Admittedly that first post could have been left in my brain as well. The second reason I made that post congratulating Terry is that I have no problem with people deciding that they like the Motif ES better than the Fantom-S and with them purchasing one and getting rid of their Fantom-S (which is nothing I plan to do). I guess it was kind of like a respectful farewell and a reminder of how mature and open minded this forum is although I did not put that much thought into it. Really at the time I was blown away that he had already got one. I was expecting Yamaha to be at least a month late on delivering the new Motif but here they prove me wrong and deliver the thing early.
Again, this was in no way intended to upset anybody but are just my thoughts that I am appreciating feedback on. Thanks for your posts!

You the man, Artemio!
FatBoyJim
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Joined: 07:53, 4 May 2003
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by FatBoyJim »

BTW-Phil, I am glad that you were able to write a tutorial on patch editing and I look forward to reading it.

You the man, Artemio!
MK
Posts: 310
Joined: 21:11, 30 May 2003
Location: On the black and white keys

Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by MK »

FBJ,

You are too worried about things.

The Pro-Rec patches are no big deal. Pro-Rec is known for taking months before delivering their patches for a synth. Based on years of experience I have observed it usually takes 6 - 12 months before patches begin to appear for a new synth in any reasonable quantity.

Momentum is increasing for the Fantom-S. You can see it by the many posts on other websites. Roland knows what they are doing. They have been in business for decades.

As for the ES, why feel threatened? I visited Motifator this morning--the first time since I ordered the DVD. While there I discovered a thread about whether to buy or not buy the ES. It was interesting to read how many current Motif owners refuse to upgrade. The Motif inventory will be sold at reduced prices. Then the ES will replace the current line without any significant increase in sales. Do not expect newcomers to get completely ecstatic over an upgraded Motif. This never happens with instruments. High-profile, radically new synths bring in new customers and increase market share, not upgraded synths.

Forum activity is not a reliable indicator. I am a member of several newsgroups and websites where I have posted little or nothing. I check in once in a while, maybe once a month, and then disappear. There is always a silent majority no matter what the newsgroup subject. This was easier to observe in the old days of mailing lists instead of websites. Back then all one had to do was retrieve the list of subscribers. I did that many times, and noticed at least 25% of visitors/subscribers never post anything regardless of the subject matter. In some cases it was over 60%.

Chicken Systems does not have to deliver. There are plenty of other products to convert from Akai to WAV, such as this one:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?Pr ... y=Software

Even then, you do not not need Akai format. Load WAVs and assign them to the pads. Or play any Audio format sample CD through your DVD player and sample it yourself with the FS.

By the way, The Chill Out Room has been reduced back from $100 to $20.

http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/det ... =CATCD8COR
FatBoyJim
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Location: Albuquerque, NM

Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by FatBoyJim »

MK,

I do tend to think a lot even though I don’t have a brain. I believe my only real worry right now is about Artemio but I could be wrong. Even my wife, who could care less about this forum or the Fantom-S asks about Aretmio first thing in the morning after I check in here to see if he has made a post or sent me e-mail.

Of course I hope that momentum is building for the Fantom-S and I don’t have anyway of telling if it is or not but I a skeptical if that is the case.

I don’t know if “threatened” is the right word that I would use for how I feel about the Motif ES. I just think that it is going sell much better than the Fantom-S ever did and I definitely think that it will hurt future Fantom-S sells. You make a good point about the ES being an upgrade and not an entirely new product. You have obviously been involved in this much longer than I have and know much more about it than I do. Why I feel the ES is going to sell well is because the original Motif was very popular and to a great extent it does answer what many including people on this forum have been asking for. I have seen the thread that you mention but have not read it. I read one similar to it over at HC from an old friend of ours here on this forum and what you saw on that thread is very similar to what I remember the other thread going like as well. My feeling is that these people’s minds, that don’t want the new Motif, will change in the future.

Good point about forum activity although I did not mean that this had anything to do with the future of the Fantom-S, only this site. Even though I can’t take part in it like I used to because of time issues I would still like to see it very busy like it used to be. I would also like to see tips and tricks, free patches and more samples here on this site but as of yet what most people seemed to desire no one is willing to deliver on.

I would like to get the Chicken Systems Translator knowing that Roland has worked with them on this and hoping that this means that it will work 100% correctly, which I understand is not real common with these sample translators.

Thanks for the tip about The Chill Out Room!

I made this post in a hurry and hope that it does not come across as derogatory because that is not the case and I value your input greatly. Thanks!

You the man, Artemio!
Red Winger
Posts: 982
Joined: 03:24, 30 May 2003
Location: Cal-Y-phony-a

Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by Red Winger »

"I would still like to see it very busy like it used to be. I would also like to see tips and tricks, free patches and more samples here on this site but as of yet what most people seemed to desire no one is willing to deliver on."

Patience, FBJ. It's not that no one's willing, it's just that (in my case for example) it's a question of not having the time right this moment. It'll happen. I expect that, when your time frees up, you, too, will be adding to the patches, etc. on the site. Enter the Chill Out Room. :-)

Anyway, take heed from the more experienced guys here (not including myself on this one) like Ron and Phil and MK when they say, don't worry about the ES. Don't worry. Be Happy. (hmm....maybe I should write a song about that....)

BTW, MK, I second FBJ's thanks for the tip on the sample CD. I actually just ordered it (as well as another ProSamples CD), since the price was too good to pass up.

Cheers,
RW
FatBoyJim
Posts: 1715
Joined: 07:53, 4 May 2003
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by FatBoyJim »

OK, I’m back from dinner. I’ll chill out. Thanks for your alls thoughts. I have really appreciated them and I really appreciate you all. The core group of people on this forum is made up of some really spectacular people. I will stop thinking/worrying so much.


You the man, Artemio!
Phait
Posts: 932
Joined: 08:48, 9 August 2003
Location: Appleton, WI, USA

Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by Phait »

I don't meant to get too personal but more insight would be helpful as to Artemio's illness - any idea what it is? If we knew, it may ease our worrying.. afterall, we're advancing more and more in medicine and tech..
FatBoyJim
Posts: 1715
Joined: 07:53, 4 May 2003
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by FatBoyJim »

Hi Phait! Thanks for yours and everyone else’s concern. He will of course appreciate this very much. I just sent him an e-mail that was addressed to his wife but I don’t have any idea if she will be able to even open it seeing as it is his account. I will call a phone number that I found for him by next Friday if we don’t hear anything from before then but I doubt that I will be able to wait that long before making this call because everyday that passes without hearing from him is getting harder and harder.

You the man, Artemio!
Tony Clifton
Posts: 269
Joined: 19:59, 26 May 2003
Location: NYC/FLA

Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by Tony Clifton »

Put that ES DVD away FBJ!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, I don't think worrying is worth it in that if Roland does decide to abandon us...........WE STILL HAVE THE Fantom-S!
I 'd love a well produced DVD manual for this PUPPY but I will not hold my breath.
MK has it right the future is SOFTWARE based synthesis intergrating with whatever hardware has the fastest and easiest DATA transfer technology.
That being said people still use DX-7s,old Tritons,etc.
Yes Chicken Systems providing somethinmg like Translator for the Fantom-S would be nice but other DAWs can convert to .wav or .aiff too.
I still love the S88 piano and prefer it's action over the old Korg and Yammy 88 key workstations.
However if you are buying a new Workstation strictly for it's piano then you have TOO MUCH DISPOSABLE INCOME......':P
I plan to upgrade my G4 eventually in a YEAR or SO to a track tested G5 line before I worry about what cutting edge new Workstation has more features than the ES or our poor OLD 64 voice Roland?
Yamy may have a winner but MK is right that the Fantom-S OS and EASE OF USE are SECOND TO NONE right now.
Roland made NO MISTAKE THERE!
I plan to SHARE THE SECRET with you guys for as long as we have this forum.
Hopefully Artemio's wife gives us some GOOD NEWS VERY SOON!
I would only buy an ES now because a rack would take at a year and half to appear I would imagine?
The DVD does show the OS and navigation to be a real DRAG compared to the Roland and I am not half as keen considering for 199.00 as Red Winger suggested I could use Virtual Guitarist plus add Logic or Cubase as an editing solution for midi.
I personally have a very ill 82 year old mother that is my TOP PRIORITY RIGHT NOW as we take her to the hospital in the a.m. for tests.
So I'm not getting to play the S88 or contribute much but enthusiastic ENDORSEMENT of a GREAT INSTRUMENT in the Roland Fantom-S/S88.
We all have Artemio in our thoughts as we await any news on him!

THROW THAT DAMN MO ES DVD OUT ,JIM LOL!

Peace,
Tony :D
DogZilla
Posts: 704
Joined: 18:00, 26 August 2003
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by DogZilla »

Guys

The only thing to be concerned about is Artemio's health.

If the Fantom S flops - who cares? (apart from Roland corp.) If this board didn't do what you wanted it to you wouldn't have bought it. Also, the less people using Roland's superb sonic canvas for their work wil add exclusivity to ours - just listen to all the dance tunes using the same regurgitated Korg & Yamaha versions of original Juno sounds etc!

Also I have visited the motifator forum (when I was trying to make up my mind on which board to buy) and there are a lot of people there who are pissed off that Yamaha had the audacity to bring out the ES (said dogzilla dryly:-)!) after they had purchased their motifs. Made me chuckle really.

Come on folks lets not be sheep.

Baaaa!

Dog
Bruiser
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Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by Bruiser »

Your'e doing a fine job shepherding us "sheep" on this board right now FBJ. However, nobody can replace Artemio. I too log on every day hoping to find the "I'm back" thread. It's agonizing not knowing what is going on, and feeling so helpless.

I see some parallels between the FS competition and what happened between the Mac and PC many years ago. Back in the days of MSDOS, the Mac had a nice, user-friendly graphical interface. It took many years for the PC community to realize the value of a user-friendly interface. Now we have Windows (comment: I know I'm opening myself up to rabid responses on the user-friendliness of Windows, but you have to admit that it's better than MSDOS).

Roland has wisely chosen to step up the advertising for the FS. I'm sure it will have significant effect. I just hope that Roland does a better job capitalizing on their better idea than what Apple has done with the Mac.

At any rate, I know that I purchased the best machine out there for my needs. Because this kind of equipment is not cheap, I hope that those who purchased otherwise did the same.


Red Winger
Posts: 982
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Re: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

Post by Red Winger »

Thanks for following up with Artemio, FBJ. Keep us posted. We're all anxious to hear good news.

TC -- sorry to hear about your mother's illness. We'll keep you and her in our prayers as well. Hang in there.

Cheers,
RW
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