ES and ION

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Phil B
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Joined: 05:23, 15 July 2003
Location: NYC

ES and ION

Post by Phil B »

Well, popped in to Sam Ash today on my lunch break and tried out the ES and the ION. Here's what I thought:

(1) The ES: Can't really give a true opinion because I just couldn't take the interface. I mean, the sounds seem fine, but I am so completely spoiled with the FS I guess. The filter sweeps were smooth (i.e., no audible stepping) like I've heard (I hear stepping with the FS when the resonance is turned up and you're using structure 1, but anyway...). I didn't hear that noise in the piano sample (then again, I didn't hear it in the store with S90 either - only when I got it home without all the noise) - but I did hear that same high pitched percussion in the attack that kills me. To me it kills the feeling of playing a real piano instantly. So, the ES may very well be a monster that can blow down the rest of city of synths in one easy gust, but I'll never know - just like I'll never know what it's like to program a computer synth with punch cards.

(2) The ION: I liked it. It feels a bit on the flimsy side, but I liked the sounds - and I love the endless rotaries - it's pathetic that every synth doesn't have these - if an $800 synth can have them, then a $2000 plus synth should too. I can't stand parameter jumps on synths - but, you learn to live with them. It just sucks for recording knob moves. Anyway, back to the ION. It seems cheaply made. The buttons are like those on $5 handheld video games. But, again, the sound is pretty fine. The filters sound great - really great. And just like advertised, it's not a "new sounding VA" - it sounds like the old analogs (which I prefer, actually). If this thing is released as a tabletop (like the virus) for $500, I'd probably get it.

Oh, and I also tried the Nord Lead 2X. I've played the NL2 before and I actually like the Nord sound. But, is it me or did they drastically change the materials they used to build this thing (compared to the NL2)? It looked like cheap plastic. Maybe I'm thinking of the NL3 build. I dunno.

I guess you can tell I care a lot about build quality. I guess that's one thing that made me fall in love with the FS.

Bottom line: I've never been happier with a board than I am with the FS - nothing changed today for me (whew).
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Artemiy
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Re: ES and ION

Post by Artemiy »

Thanks very much for your post, Phil!
Phil B
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Re: ES and ION

Post by Phil B »

I'm shocked to get no responses on this (well, except Artemio - thanks!) -- so I had to bump it.
mucsusn
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Joined: 23:31, 2 July 2003

Re: ES and ION

Post by mucsusn »

Phil,

Sometimes I pop into the local GC during lunch, and I inevitably end up in front of the Roland gear. I like the sounds, I like the feel. To this day, I cannot wrap my arms around the other makers..............my own long brewing personal prejudice, I suppose, but one born of over a decade of reliable, good sound from my JV-90. No other piece of hardware ever lasted me that long before I grew weary of it, except for the upright I grew up with and still have in my music room. I'm hoping the S-88 proves to be as faithful a servant.

Hell, there are times I can't even figure out to navigate patches on the Motif, much less get serious work done.

And I have never been impressed with the physical feel of Alesis gear...........knobs, actions, material selection, fit and finish; you name it. Build quality is something that imbues confidence when you use a product. There really is no excuse for lack of it in today's world. Sometimes I think that Roland has sort of a Toyota-ish approach. No lead with your chin innovation, but solid ideas, executed well and incorporated into overall packages that just work.

I spent a few minutes at motifator during my lunch, and broswed the motifmart........listened to some sample patches, etc. and was NOT impressed. The pianos were thin and buzzy, and the strings were not well presented. I know some of that is due to mp3 limitations, but not all of it. Sounds and mixes that are fundamentally solid survive the encoding journey fairly well.

Like you, I wish there were more rotary controls on a modern synth, but they are a manufacturing nightmare compared to buttons and thin film switches. I believe we are largely stuck with these for the time being.

And last.......you lucky B, being able to "pop into" Ash during your workday..........Is that midtown?
Red Winger
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Location: Cal-Y-phony-a

Re: ES and ION

Post by Red Winger »

Has anyone had a chance to play with a Hartmann Neuron at all? I've read some pretty cool reviews on it and, but for the whopping-huge sticker price, it sounds amazing. Last time I went down to my GC and my other regular local music shop, neither had one to demo. I'm really curious about how the joystick controllers, infinite knobs, etc. feel on that guy, given the price tag.

Cheers,
RW
Phil B
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Location: NYC

Re: ES and ION

Post by Phil B »

mucsusn - my office is in Times Square a few blocks from Ash, Manny's and Rudy's Guitar Shop (the best guitar shop - but, I barely play guitar - bought a classical guitar there a few years ago and go out of my way to buy strings there when I need them). It is nice to have - there's also a Virgin records in the middle (and they have all of the music mags usually, including the british ones - by the way, how does everyone feel about taking shrink wrapped magazines out of the wrapper to read them in the store, assuming nobody is looking? I never do it - but, I always want to)

RW - I played with a Neuron a little bit. As far a build quality goes, for that money, pathetic is a word that comes to mind. I actually saw one in Sam Ash and one in Manny's - both had broken keys!! And when I say broken keys I mean a key from the keyboard was broken in half!! I guess it could just be a coincidence (it was definitely 2 different ones though). The joysticks did not make me confident either. The sound? I thought it sounded pretty good, but I didn't spend enough time with it to hear how "different" it sounded. It sounded like crossfaded patches most of the time. But, I am probably being too harsh on the sound. Maybe I'll go check it out this week again and report back.
Red Winger
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Re: ES and ION

Post by Red Winger »

Hey Phil,

I've never unwrapped a mag in the store to look at it. Often there is one already unwrapped to peruse but, if not, I just decide based on the content listing on the cover whether to give it a whirl. I really like some of the UK mags. I subscribe to the US version of SOS and usually go and buy one or both of Computer Music and Music Tech (although not every month).

As to the Neuron, that's really a shame. If the build quality isn't there (which it definitely sounds like it isn't), the sounds aren't going to get them anywhere....not at that price point. I like seeing new ideas in synthesis popping up here and there, but you don't want to lead with a shoddy build....as Arp learned the hard way with its Avatar (while perhaps not technically a shoddy build...it was buggy at best and unworkable at worst).

Cheers,
RW
MK
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Joined: 21:11, 30 May 2003
Location: On the black and white keys

Neuron Interior Revealed Again!

Post by MK »

I can tell you about the Neuron. It is basically a crossfaded pad machine that is cheaply made. Even worse, it is shipped in a thin cardboard box. With the combination of poor build quality and the lousy shipping container a high percentage of the Neurons were arriving broken at Nova Musik. A salesman there told me they stopped importing the Neurons because of the shipping damage problem.

Some of you might recall my Neuron revelations posted on HC months ago. I have to be honest with you and state that to this day there is not a week that goes by without my getting into an intense fit of laugher over that thread. I deleted all my posts, but the sensation it caused still makes me laugh.

For those of you who missed it, I posted links to VERY revealing photos of the Neuron electronics. I exposed the Neuron as nothing more than an old PC with fragile joysticks and a keyboard. The group recognized the motherboard and other parts. They were shocked by the interior. All this time everyone believed that Hartmann had accomplished something special in hardware, and someone comes along with photos that prove otherwise!

In case you missed that lively HC discussion earlier this year, here are the shocking photos again...

http://www.stucki.com/krhen/downloads/neuron/
mucsusn
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Re: ES and ION

Post by mucsusn »

MK,

I remember that thread and those photos, but looked again..............that is a Shuttle MOBO, the same Taiwanese company that makes those small form factor barebones systems. I have a Shuttle MOBO in one of my PC's at home.

That's funny!

How much does the Hartmann retail for?
Phil B
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Joined: 05:23, 15 July 2003
Location: NYC

Re: ES and ION

Post by Phil B »

That's too much MK. (I had no idea what I was looking for in your photos, but thanks mucsusn for pointing that out)

I'm not surprised. Your description of it as a "a crossfaded pad machine that is cheaply made" is right on.

As far as using the Shuttle MOBO goes, and any other lame things you think they did, how far out of line is this with industry practice (i'm asking - I have no idea)? Are the big boys like Roland, Korg and Yamaha able to use custom stuff because of their size, and Hartmann is stuck using off the shelf stuff because of their size? Does using the Shuttle MOBO, etc. result in worse performance? Or was everyone just led to believe by Hartmann that their "new" machine was new software AND new hardware?

I'm intrigued. Tell us more!!
Red Winger
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Re: ES and ION

Post by Red Winger »

Wow! I missed your posts at HC. Thanks for the links here. Incredible. I'm sitting here scratching my head trying to figure out how they could have wasted so much programmer development time to amount to a need to make the price point nearly 5 grand. Clearly, it's not in the hardware development (which is what I presumed....I figured it must have been a series of custom ASICs or something).

BTW, what the heck is that red thing at the back of the board in your last photo? It looks like something out of the Steve McQueen version of The Blob.

As always, this is such a great place for info. Thanks, MK.

[Edit: appears I was posting at the same time as mucsusn and Phil...sorry for any repetition]

Cheers,
RW
Red Winger
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Re: ES and ION

Post by Red Winger »

Hey Phil,

Typically, the big three will develop a series of custom parts that can be used across a line of synths and which have flexibility for future expansion in later synths. They'll also use existing stuff, of course, but they can afford to sink some money into developing unique chipsets.

I don't know anything about the Shuttle MOBO, so can't tell whether that would harm performance (it might be perfectly fine...just because it is pre-existing doesn't make it bad). However, that means Hartmann just focused on software development, not hardware. At a $5k price, that's a whole lot of software development (unless they just planned on only making a handful right from the start...which seems self-defeating).

Strangeness.

Cheers,
RW
Phil B
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Location: NYC

Re: ES and ION

Post by Phil B »

Thanks for clearing that up RW. Now I get it (I can be a little thick sometimes)
Bruiser
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Re: ES and ION

Post by Bruiser »

Is it possible to hookup a qwerty keyboard to the Neuron along with a monitor to do word processing too? Maybe play Sims and other games also?? Hmm...

This is too funny!


MK
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Re: ES and ION

Post by MK »

Hartmann priced the Neuron at $5,000. When they realized it was not selling very well they lowered the price by 10% to $4,500. If that synth was purchased in a store, the tax would still bring the cost back to near $5,000. The company introduced the product at a time when analog synths were totally hot but world economies were crumbling fast. They managed to sell some units, particularly to exotic-minded individuals. I seriously doubt they could have sold enough Neurons to break even, let alone the idea of earning a profit.

During the HC thread I wrote that the hard drive is a 20 GB model. A couple HC members were interested in the contents of the drive. It probably contains Linux code. I also mentioned in that HC thread it would be fascinating to insert a video board into a PCI slot. Who knows what we might find out? I cannot recall if there is a keyboard port. I will view the photos again later today.
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