Tweakability? @Artemio

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trrstrl
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Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by trrstrl »

Artemio,
How does the Jupiter-80 compare to the Fantom in terms of transforming and sculpting sounds? It sounded as if the modulation possiblities are less. I realize the emphasis is on sound expression and performance. Just curious if there will be plenty of options for creating variations of instruments and or completely new instruments. This is more of a concern if there is no option for sampling or importing waves for use as an oscillator. The Howard Jones video had a pretty unique sound but might have been the result of an effect.
vladuca
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by vladuca »

There's a new feature called "Tone Blender" that is like the old Matrix control. One controller in, mapped to multiple parameters of multiple tones in a Live Set, including MFX. You can even save the resulting Live Set as a new creation.

I know... the function name is not too cool, but what it does is cool!
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Artemiy
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by Artemiy »

So the question is, will it blend? I guess the answer is yes :-)
realtrance
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by realtrance »

Yeah, the Tone Blender thing caught my eye. It sounds really simple, like just a mixer, but I think it's probably at the heart of how you "do modulation" on the JP-80.

I've only scanned over things briefly (Vince, any chance of a manual being posted at the online Roland site?), but I'd guess that you can assign various aspects of tone blending to various controllers, resulting in your ability to dynamically change tonality real-time during a performance?

Mixing tones on the JP-80 seems like the replacement for what we'd traditionally do with, say, LFO modulation of a filter or envelope, but far more interesting in terms of possibilities, if you think of being able to blend tonalities, real-time, on-the-fly as you play, in a way that changes the basic tone.
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secret Roland agent
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by secret Roland agent »

Artemiy says - So the question is, will it blend? I guess the answer is yes :-)
Image

I was actually there and WOW, did it ever blend!
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Artemiy
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by Artemiy »

sRa, so will you sell that stuff now as a snuffing powder?
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Artemiy
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by Artemiy »

trrstrl, sorry for fooling around and not answering your original question.

JUPITER-80 is pretty much as tweakable as a Fantom, it surely forgoes 4 partials for 3, but you do get 24 dB/oct filters, sync, PWM and a few other things that the Fantoms cannot do. There is no step LFO though, but that would be the only omission I saw. The great thing about JP-80 is the user interface which mimics a hardware panel, it's very intuitive to use, so more people will now be able to grasp the engine.
trrstrl
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by trrstrl »

Artemio, thanks for your reply. That is encouraging. I was concerned that it might not have the sound shaping abilities that the previous synths have been so good at. I've always felt that Roland's synth engine was good enough to approach modelling quality. I want the ability to drastically warp the sounds if need be.

I couldn't find the original thread, but quite some time ago a few of us thought of ideas for a follow up to the Fantom X. I think I suggested a Roland Zeus, with onboard V-drum engine(with connections on the back for optional mesh drum pads), 256 voice polyphony, analog modelling, and so on. I also suggested there be an effort to add more control over the sounds to add realism to the playing. That is the biggest barrier to synths emulating real instruments. You are mostly stuck with static samples. Anyway, it's exciting to see this potential in the Jupiter 80. If it allows a reasonable amount of tweaking, it will be on my list of things to pick up. Just wish they could have gotten the price down a bit.
JunoJohn
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by JunoJohn »

At 1:18 in this video Scott Tibbs says:
There's also a lot of shortcuts on the keyboard. So you can go in and edit some very basic--very low level places of the sound and be able to edit them in real time.
OMNICELL
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by OMNICELL »

So, as I see it, it is not good at morphing sounds? better to have a V synth?
trrstrl
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by trrstrl »

I did end up buying a Jupiter 80. There are quite a few parameters for editing your own electronic sounds. There aren't many for editing the acoustic sounds. The synth engine is pretty powerful and you can definitely create unique sounds that are not represented in the presets. The virtual analog synthesis is a little on the generic side. It doesn't quite sound analog, though in the context of a song it would probably be convincing.

The Jupiter 80 could have been a mind blowing synth but instead it's just a pretty good synth. The acoustic emulations are very good but they didn't include enough instruments or variations and articulations. It is close to being a preset machine on the supernatural acoustic instruments. It helps that "behavior modelling" makes playing seem more like a real instrument but they should have taken it further. Like it or not, hardware has to compete with software for people's business.

In some areas the Jupiter 80 falls way short. The electric guitar sounds are horrendous. This was corrected on the Integra 7, but apparently no way to rectify this on the Jupiter 80 (as far as we know). The tone wheel organ seems incomplete but is capable of some good sounds with editing. Before updating the software to 2.0 and changing the effects structure, you couldn't even have rotary and overdrive together for an organ sound. The solution was stacking one organ sound that had rotary with another organ sound that had overdrive. To say it was unconvincing would be generous.

I don't regret buying it almost 3 years ago but wouldn't buy it now with what is available. It is one of those flawed synths that wasn't thought through to completion. If you are going to be a performance synth you can't do things like retrict your organ players to moving one drawbar at a time (slowly). If you are not going to allow for expandability then you better have the best sounds there is available (software or hardware). Otherwise you are already behind the times. There are plenty of ipad apps that have better or more interesting synth engines than the Jupiter 80's "virtual analog". Why not allow loading of samples? Why not include some of the effects from the V-Synth or Fantom? This could have been like Omnisphere as hardware synth.

It is still a fun synth to work with. It has a lot of great sounds along with a lot that aren't great plus lots of limitations. If it had come out 3 years earlier than it did at a few hundred dollars less it would have made sense. Roland has some catching up to do.
Dany2
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by Dany2 »

trrstrl wrote:I did end up buying a Jupiter 80.

Which was possibly the wrong decision from the beginning. An iPad and an AKAI Synthstation is probably the better solution for you: http://www.akaipro.com/product/synthstation49
There are quite a few parameters for editing your own electronic sounds.
"Tone Blender tweaks multiple parameters of tones in realtime for complex, emotive sonic movement during performance":

Image

SN-Synth Tone "ZOOM Edit":

Image

SN-Synth Tone "PRO Edit":

"Partial 1-3 Switch OFF, ON Use these buttons to turn on the partial that you want to be heard.
Partial 1-3 Select OFF, ON Use these buttons to select the partial that you want to edit.

COMMON tab
Tone Name - Name of the tone.
Tone Category
Selects the tone’s category.
Tone Level 0–127 Adjusts the overall volume of the tone.
RING Switch OFF, ON
Turns ring modulator on/off.
By multiplying partial 1’s OSC and partial 2’s OSC, this creates a complex, metallic-sounding
waveform like that of a bell.
The partial 1’s OSC waveform will change as shown in the illustration, and partial 2’s OSC will be
output with its original waveform.
Partial 1’s OSC
waveform
Partial 2’s OSC
waveform
Partial 1’s OSC
output waveform
The modulator LFO will always use the partial parameter settings, regardless of the LFO Shape, Rate,
and Key Trigger settings of the Live Set Modify parameters.
If Ring Switch is turned on, the OSC Pulse Width Mod Depth, OSC Pulse Width, and SUPER SAW
Detune of partial 1 and partial 2 cannot be used.
In addition, if an asymmetrical square wave is selected as the OSC waveform, the OSC variation
will be ignored, and there will be a slight difference in sound compared to the originally selected
waveform.
Wave Shape 0–127
Partial 1 will be modulated by the pitch of partial 2. Higher values produce a greater effect.
This has no effect if the partial 1 waveform is PW-SQR or SP-SAW.
Analog Feel 0–127
Use this to apply “1/f fluctuation,” a type of randomness or instability that is present in many natural
systems (such as a babbling brook or whispering breeze) and is perceived as pleasant by many
people.
By applying “1/f fluctuation” you can create the natural-sounding instability that is characteristic of
an analog synthesizer.
Unison Switch OFF, ON
This layers a single sound.
If the Unison Switch is on, the number of notes layered on one key will change according to the number of keys you play.
Unison Size 2, 4, 6, 8
Number of notes assigned to each key when the Unison Switch is on
Example: If Unison Size is 8
Number of keys pressed Number of notes sounded
1 8
2 4 each
3–4 2 each
5–8 1 each

OSC tab
OSC Wave
SAW
This waveform contains a sine wave fundamental plus a fixed proportion of sine wave harmonics at
all integer multiples of that fundamental.
SQR
This waveform contains a sine wave fundamental plus a fixed proportion of sine wave harmonics at
odd-numbered multiples of that fundamental.
PW-SQR
The overtone structure of this waveform will vary significantly depending on the width of the upper
portion of the waveform (Pulse Width).
TRI
This waveform contains a sine wave fundamental plus a fixed proportion of sine wave harmonics at
even-numbered multiples of that fundamental.
SINE This is a sine wave. This is a waveform that produces just a single frequency; it is the basis of all sound.
NOISE This waveform contains all frequencies. It is suitable for percussion instrument sounds or sound
effects.
SUPER SAW (SP-SAW) This produces a tone similar to seven sawtooth waves heard simultaneously. Pitch-shifted sounds are
added to the center sound. It is suitable for strings sounds, and for creating thick sounds.
PCM This is a PCM waveform. (363 PCM waveforms)
OSC Wave Variation A, B, C
You can select variations of the currently selected WAVE.
* This has no effect for SP-SAW or PCM.
Wave Number 1–363
Selects the PCM waveform.
* This is valid only if PCM is selected for OSC Wave.
Wave Gain -6, 0, +6, +12
Specifies the gain (amplitude) of the waveform.
The value will change in 6 dB (decibel) steps. Each 6 dB increase doubles the gain.
* This is valid only if PCM is selected for OSC Wave.
OSC Pulse Width Mod Depth 0–127
Specifies the amount (depth) of LFO applied to PW (Pulse Width).
If the OSC Wave has selected (PW-SQR), you can use this slider to specify the amount of LFO
modulation applied to PW (pulse width).
If the Ring Switch is on, this has no effect on partials 1 and 2.
OSC Pulse Width 0–127
Specifies the pulse width.
If the OSC Wave has selected (PW-SQR), you can use this slider to specify the width of the
upper portion of the square wave (the pulse width) as a percentage of the entire cycle.
Decreasing the value will decrease the width, approaching a square wave (pulse width = 50%).
Increasing the value will increase the width, producing a distinctive sound.
If the Ring Switch is on, this has no effect on partials 1 and 2.
OSC Pulse Width Shift 0–127 Shifts the range of change. Normally, you can leave this at 127.
If the Ring Switch is on, this has no effect on partials 1 and 2.
Super Saw Detune 0–127
Specifies the amount of pitch difference between the seven sawtooth waves layered within a single
oscillator.
Higher values will increase the pitch difference. (OSC Detune applies an equal amount of pitch
difference between each of the seven sawtooth waves.)
If the Ring Switch is on, this has no effect on partials 1 and 2.
* This is valid only if SP-SAW is selected for OSC Wave.

Pitch tab
OSC Pitch -24– +24 Adjusts the pitch in semitone steps.
OSC Detune -50– +50 Adjusts the pitch in steps of one cent.
OSC Pitch Env Attack Time 0–127
Specifies the attack time of the pitch envelope.
This specifies the time from the moment you press the key until the pitch reaches its highest (or
lowest) point.
OSC Pitch Env Decay Time 0–127
Specifies the decay time of the pitch envelope.
This specifies the time from the moment the pitch reaches its highest (or lowest) point until it returns
to the pitch of the key you pressed.
OSC Pitch Env Depth -63– +63 This specifies how much the pitch envelope will affect the pitch.
Octave Shift -3– +3 Specifies the octave of the tone.
Pitch Bend Range Up 0– +24 Specifies the amount of pitch change that occurs when the pitch bend/modulation lever is moved all
the way to the right.
Pitch Bend Range Down 0– -24 Specifies the amount of pitch change that occurs when the pitch bend/modulation lever is moved all
the way to the left.

FILTER tab
FILTER Mode BYPASS, LPF, HPF, BPF, PKG Selects the type of filter.
FILTER Slope -12dB, -24dB This button selects the slope (steepness) of the filter.
FILTER Cutoff 0–127 Specifies the cutoff frequency.
FILTER Cutoff Keyfollow -100– +100
Here’s how you can make the filter cutoff frequency to vary according to the key you play.
C2 C3 C4 C5 C6
0
+50
+100
-50
-100
0
-2
-1
+2
+1
Cutoff frequency
(octave)
High
Key
Value
Low
FILTER Env Velocity Sens -63– +63 Here’s how you can make the filter envelope depth vary according to the strength with which you
play the key.
FILTER Resonance 0–127 Resonance emphasizes the sound in the region of the filter cutoff frequency.
FILTER Env Attack Time 0–127
This specifies the time from the
moment you press the key until the
cutoff frequency reaches its highest
(or lowest) point.
Cutoff
frequency
Time
Key-off
DEPTH
Key-on
FILTER Env Decay Time 0–127
This specifies the time from when the
cutoff frequency reaches its highest
(or lowest) point, until it decays to
the sustain level.
FILTER Env Sustain Level 0–127
This specifies the cutoff frequency
that will be maintained from when
the decay time has elapsed until you
release the key.
FILTER Env Release Time 0–127
This specifies the time from when
you release the key until the cutoff
frequency reaches its minimum
value.
FILTER Env Depth -63– +63
This specifies the direction and
depth to which the cutoff frequency
will change.
HPF Cutoff 0–127
Specifies the cutoff frequency of an independent -6 dB high-pass filter.
BYPASS, LPF, HPF,
-6dB HPF BPF, PKG

AMP tab
AMP Level 0–127 Partial volume.
AMP Level Velocity Sens -63– +63 Here’s how you can make the volume vary according to the strength with which you play the
keyboard.
AMP Pan L64–64R Here’s how to change the stereo position of the partial.
AMP Level Keyfollow
-100, -90, -80, -70, -60, -50,
-40, -30, -20, -10, 0, +10,
+20, +30, +40, +50, +60,
+70, +80, +90, +100
Specify this if you want to vary the volume according to the position of the key that you play.
With the C4 key (middle C) as the base volume, “+” values will make the volume increase as you play
above C4; “-” values will make the volume decrease. Higher values will produce greater change.
AMP Env Attack Time 0–127
Specifies the attack time of the amp
envelope.
This specifies the time from the
moment you press the key until the
maximum volume is reached.
Cutoff
frequency
Time
Key-off
Key-on
AMP Env Decay Time 0–127
Specifies the decay time of the amp
envelope.
This specifies the time from when the
maximum volume is reached, until it
decays to the sustain level.
AMP Env Sustain Level 0–127
Specifies the sustain level of the amp
envelope.
This specifies the volume level that
will be maintained from when the
attack and decay times have elapsed
until you release the key.
AMP Env Release Time 0–127
Specifies the release time of the amp
envelope.
This specifies the time from when
you release the key until the volume
reaches its minimum value.

LFO tab
LFO Shape
Selects the LFO waveform.
TRI Triangle wave
SIN Sine wave
SAW Sawtooth wave
SQR Square wave
S&H Sample and Hold (The LFO value will change once each cycle.)
RND Random wave
LFO Rate 0–127 Specifies the LFO rate when Modulation LFO Tempo Sync Switch is OFF.
LFO Tempo Sync Switch OFF, ON If this is ON, the LFO rate can be specified as a note value relative to the tempo.
LFO Tempo Sync Note note (p. 86) Specifies the LFO rate when Modulation LFO Tempo Sync Switch is ON.
LFO Fade Time 0–127
This specifies the time from when the partial sounds until the LFO reaches its maximum amplitude.
Fade Time
LFO Key Trigger OFF, ON If this is on, the LFO cycle will be restarted when you press a key.
LFO Pitch Depth -63– +63 This allows the LFO to modulate the pitch, producing a vibrato effect.
LFO Filter Depth -63– +63 This allows the LFO to modulate the FILTER CUTOFF (cutoff frequency), producing a wah effect.
LFO Amp Depth -63– +63 This allows the LFO to modulate the AMP LEVEL (volume), producing a tremolo effect.
LFO Pan Depth -63– +63 Here’s how to make the PAN (stereo position) vary (Auto Panning).

Modulation LFO tab
Modulation LFO Shape
Selects the LFO waveform.
There is an LFO that is always applied to the partial, and a MODULATION LFO for applying modulation when the pitch bend/
modulation lever is moved away from yourself.
TRI Triangle wave
SIN Sine wave
SAW Sawtooth wave
SQR Square wave
S&H Sample and Hold (The LFO value will change once each cycle.)
RND Random wave
Modulation LFO Rate 0–127 Specifies the LFO rate when Modulation LFO Tempo Sync Switch is OFF.
Modulation LFO Tempo Sync Switch OFF, ON If this is ON, the LFO rate can be specified as a note value relative to the tempo.
Modulation LFO Tempo Sync Note note (p. 86) Specifies the LFO rate when Modulation LFO Tempo Sync Switch is ON.
Modulation LFO Pitch Depth -63– +63 This allows the LFO to modulate the pitch, producing a vibrato effect.
Modulation LFO Filter Depth -63– +63 This allows the LFO to modulate the FILTER CUTOFF (cutoff frequency), producing a wah effect.
Modulation LFO Amp Depth -63– +63 This allows the LFO to modulate the AMP LEVEL (volume), producing a tremolo effect.
Modulation LFO Pan Depth -63– +63 Here’s how to make the PAN (stereo position) vary (Auto Panning).
Modulation LFO Rate Control -63– +63
Make these settings if you want to change the Modulation LFO Rate when the modulation lever is
operated.
Specify a positive (+) value if you want the Modulation LFO Rate to speed up when you move the
modulation lever; specify a negative (-) value if you want it to slow down.

Mono/Porta tab
Mono/Poly POLY, MONO Specifies whether notes will sound polyphonically (POLY) or monophonically (MONO).
Legato Switch OFF, ON
This is valid only if the Mono/Poly parameter is set to “MONO.” If this is on, pressing a key while the
previous key remains held down will cause the pitch to change to that of the newly pressed key
while maintaining the state in which the previous note was being sounded.
This produces an effect similar to hammering-on or pulling-off when playing a guitar.
Portamento Switch OFF, ON Specifies whether the portamento effect will be applied (ON) or not applied (OFF).
Portamento Time 0–127 Specifies the time taken for the pitch to change when playing portamento.
Higher values lengthen the time over which the pitch will change to the next note.
Portamento Mode
NORMAL Portamento will always be applied.
LEGATO Portamento will be applied only when you play legato (i.e., when you press the next key before
releasing the previous key).

Aftertouch tab
Cutoff Aftertouch Sens -63– +63
Specifies how aftertouch pressure will affect the cutoff frequency.
Specify a positive (+) value if you want aftertouch to raise the cutoff frequency; specify a negative (-)
value if you want aftertouch to lower the cutoff frequency.
Level Aftertouch Sens -63– +63
Specifies how aftertouch pressure will affect the volume.
Specify a positive (+) value if you want aftertouch to increase the volume; specify a negative (-) value
if you want aftertouch to decrease the volume.

Time Interval Env Sens
Attack Time 0–127
Shortens the FILTER and AMP Attack Time (p. 39) according to the spacing between note-on events.
Higher values produce a greater effect. With a setting of 0, there will be no effect.
This is effective when you want to play rapid notes using a sound that has a slow attack (Attack
Time).
Release Time 0–127
Shortens the FILTER and AMP Release Time (p. 39) if the interval between one note-on and the next
note-off is brief. Higher values produce a greater effect. With a setting of 0, there will be no effect.
This is effective when you want to play staccato notes using a sound that has a slow release.

Envelope Loop
Loop Mode
Use this to loop the envelope between certain regions during a note-on.
Attack Decay
Sustain
OFF The envelope will operate normally.
FREE-RUN When the Decay segment has ended, the envelope will return to the Attack. The Attack through
Decay segments will repeat until note-off occurs.
TEMPO-SYNC
Specifies the loop rate as a note value (p. 86) (Sync Note parameter).
Returns to the Attack at the specified rate. If the Attack+Decay time is shorter than the specified
rate, the Sustain Level will be maintained. If the Attack+Decay time is longer than the specified rate,
the envelope will return to the Attack even though the Decay has not been completed. This will
continue repeating until note-off occurs.
Sync Note note (p. 86) Specifies the loop rate when Loop Mode is set to TEMPO-SYNC.
Portamento
Chromatic OFF, ON If this is turned on, portamento will operate in semitone steps.
Time Interval Sens 0–127 Shortens the Portamento Time (p. 41) according to the spacing between note-on events. Higher
values produce a greater effect. With a setting of 0, there will be no effect."


The "Envelope Loop" function in "FREE-RUN" mode allows you to loop the Filter Env and the Amp Env independently from each other, which is not the case in "TEMPO-SYNC" mode. Playing around with the Filter Env Attack/Decay (increase "Env Depth") and Amp Env Attack/Decay time, will give you independent control over the Env Loop "LFO time" for Filter and Amp. This gives you in fact two additional kind of "LFO generators" for Filter and Amp, to the normal LFO generator, for each Synth Tone Partial.

But beside the normal LFO generator, the JP-80 also offers the "Modulation LFO". "Mod LFO" (in Synth Edit mode) has only an effect by applying the Mod Lever. But the "Modulation LFO" can also be activated, as an additional common "normal" LFO generator for all 3 Synth Tone Partials per LiveSet layer, if you set the "Mod LFO" parameters in LiveSet layer "Modify" mode, instead of Synth Edit mode.

This means, the JP-80 is finally offering two independent normal LFO's and two additional separate and independant (Env) "LFO's" for Filter and Amp. ----> 3 LFO's ( 1 normal LFO, 2 Env "LFO's") per Synth Partial and 1 additional LFO for all 3 Partials per LiveSet layer ----> 10 LFO's per LiveSet layer ----> 40 LFO's per LiveSet! ----> 86 LFO's per Registration!
There aren't many for editing the acoustic sounds.
Yes, the SN Acoustic Tones offer just a few parameters on the Tone Modify level, which correspond to particular SN Acoustic engines.

But most of the SN Acoustic Tones can be mangled very drastically on the LiveSet Layer Offset parameter level (Freq, Res, ADSR, etc.) and of course with the highly versatile MFX section.
The synth engine is pretty powerful and you can definitely create unique sounds that are not represented in the presets.
Indeed, this is very, very true! You are absolutely right on this point!
The virtual analog synthesis is a little on the generic side.
What a nonsense to claim! The JP-80's outstanding analog-modeling VA synth engine (so-called SN Synth) is based on decades of R&D and experience in VA development by Roland, who builds really musical and playable hardware synths.

Remember the world's first quasi VA synth, the Roland D-50 from 1987, which offers a very unique sound, which is still famous to this day, later followed by the VA JP-8000, etc.

Alike other Roland digital classics, the JP-80's SN Synth engine has also its own and very unique sound character, but yet with an incredibly versatile sound and a lot of "mojo". It behaves very organic and musical and in a very "analogish" way, offering a level of expressiveness and responsiveness, which wasn't possible with former generations of digital VA technology.

The JP-80's analog-modeling Synth engine offers ring mod, but no hard sync. But beside the vintage modeled analog waveforms you can also choose between 363 PCM waveforms as VA Osc source within the virtual analog environment, which contains plenty of very good hard sync waveforms.

Apart from Ring Modulation, you can also see the soft knob with the so-called Wave Shape function.

This is an audio sample of the Wave Shape function. First you hear an arpeggiated single Osc with a basic, vintage modeled analog saw wave (with filter bypass and no effects) with increasing Wave Shape value. Second you hear the same thing with 2 Oscs (2 Partials), which results in a different effect. Third you hear the same thing for one Osc, but with a PCM waveform as Osc source:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... nction.wav

The JP-80 allows the creation of sounds with up to 30(!) different SN-Synth Tone Partials (OSC, FILTER, AMP, and LFO chains), resp. 30 single Osc analog-modeling synths per note, which is unmatched by any existing hardware or software synth I know!
It doesn't quite sound analog, though in the context of a song it would probably be convincing.
Yes, it sounds even better than an analog, but certainly not worse, and because it is digital, it is much more versatile than an analog. And yes, it isn't an analog clone, like the TR-8.

But due to its extreme versatility, the JP-80 can come astonishingly close to some classic analog sounds, but also to many classic digital sounds, as the JP-80's VA engine can handle not only vintage modeled analog waveforms, but also sampled waveforms as Osc source, within its virtual analog environment (like the Clavia Nord Wave), offering many original PCM waveforms from the classic D-50, JD-800, etc...

Here is a description of the JP analog-modeling (VA) engine:

http://www.roland.com/synth/JUPITER/: (click on "next" in the JP window)

"...analog-modeling synth engine...each oscillator can summon vintage modeled analog waveforms...
...to faithfully recreate the unique sound of analog synths, we've meticulously analyzed the behavior of oscillators, filters, and envelopes that are unique to analog synths...
...three new types of vintage-inspired LPF...
...emulates the filter behavior of an analog synthesizer...
...the entire filter changes organically as if it's alive...
...these changes occur due to the behavior of the analog circuits and the components used, such as resistors and condensers, which make up the unique sound of an analog synth...
...each filter behaves differently, even if their cutoff and resonance parameters are the same...
...emulates the envelope behavior of an analog synthesizer...
...in an analog synth, the electric charge/discharge rate of the envelope rises and falls in a slightly curved line...
..the JUPITER-80 faithfully reproduce this attribute for all of its envelopes, including the oscillator, filter, and amplifier..."

The Jupiter 80 could have been a mind blowing synth but instead it's just a pretty good synth. The acoustic emulations are very good but they didn't include enough instruments or variations and articulations. It is close to being a preset machine on the supernatural acoustic instruments. It helps that "behavior modelling" makes playing seem more like a real instrument but they should have taken it further. Like it or not, hardware has to compete with software for people's business.
Compared to physical modeling software, like Arturia Brass or sample based software like Trilian, Ivory etc. the JP-80's SN Acoustic Tones offer a superior playing experience. They have an almost surreal quality and are extremely responsive and expressive and just a sheer joy to play.

But some of the mentioned software is of course still better for the perfect simulation of the real acoustic instrument (with all the flaws) during the recording process, but certainly not for live or for soloing purposes. For example: I prefer Trilian for realistic bass patterns during the recording process, but I prefer the JP-80's SN basses for melodic and soloing purposes and for live use, by far.

Here is a description of the underlying technology of the so-called SN Acoustic engines:

http://www.rolandus.com/blog/2013/06/04 ... ernatural/

"...each SuperNATURAL [Acoustic] engine is based on pristine studio samples of the original instrument, however; that’s where the similarities to PCM-based gear end."
"...SuperNATURAL doesn’t use sample looping...without any velocity switching..."

In some areas the Jupiter 80 falls way short. The electric guitar sounds are horrendous. This was corrected on the Integra 7, but apparently no way to rectify this on the Jupiter 80 (as far as we know).
You can correct the JP-80's electric guitar shortfall by PROGRAMMING your synth! There are several amp modeling MFXs available.

The JP-80's factory e-guitar sounds are using the analog-modeling engine with e-guitar PCM samples as Osc source without the use of the available amp modeling MFXs, which results in a typical and inferior rompler e-guitar sound.

I've programmed some outstanding electric guitar LiveSets, by using the steel string SN Acoustic guitar Tone with Amp Modeling MFXs and several other MFXs, combined with routed MFX effect parameter controls to the four controller knobs, mod lever and aftertouch. My own programmed electric guitar sounds are just mind-blowing!
The tone wheel organ seems incomplete but is capable of some good sounds with editing. Before updating the software to 2.0 and changing the effects structure, you couldn't even have rotary and overdrive together for an organ sound. The solution was stacking one organ sound that had rotary with another organ sound that had overdrive. To say it was unconvincing would be generous.
Yes, but this was before the Version2 OS update. The issue is meanwhile resolved, so why do you still mention it?
I don't regret buying it almost 3 years ago but wouldn't buy it now with what is available.
What else is available now? The plastic FA workstation and the Integra-7 module cannot replace the JP-80, which allows the creation of patches with up to 30 single Osc analog-modeling synths per note with total 256 voices!
It is one of those flawed synths that wasn't thought through to completion.
There are indeed some issues, which are annoying like e.g. the rotary button, which cannot be used to control other effect parameters, or the nice LED Volume faders, which unfortunately cannot be used for controlling sound parameters, etc.

But to generally call the JP-80 a „flawed synth "that wasn't thought through to completion“, is just a complete exaggeration!
If you are going to be a performance synth you can't do things like restrict your organ players to moving one drawbar at a time (slowly). If you are not going to allow for expandability then you better have the best sounds there is available (software or hardware). Otherwise you are already behind the times.
The JP-80 offers an outstanding Tone Wheel Modeling TW organ, with an outstanding quality. You have to program your own sounds with the suited MFXs, which will lead to excellent results!

And contrary to your misinformation, it is possible to move the virtual organ drawbars very quickly and easy on the very responsive touchscreen (TW organ, SN Acoustic Tone 0028 Tone Modify mode):

Image
There are plenty of ipad apps that have better or more interesting synth engines than the Jupiter 80's "virtual analog"
Most iPad app synths and most softsynths are just gimmicky and bad sounding crap. There are only very few good high-quality softynths available on the market, as it is still an art, which needs many years of experience, to be able to create good and responsive musical instruments. Also see my above responses...
Why not allow loading of samples?
Yes indeed, it would be very nice to have an option to use own samples as Osc source within the JP-80's virtual analog environment.

So far, we have at least 363 very useful PCM waveforms available (plus of course the vintage modeled analog waveforms).
Why not include some of the effects from the V-Synth or Fantom?
You are spreading bad misinformation, with your suggestive question!

Please compare the following effect lists from Fantom-G, V-Synth GT and Jupiter-80!

As you can see, the JP-80 has in fact much more MFXs to offer than the V-Synth GT and not less than the Fantom-G !

Fantom G Effects List:

01 EQUALIZER p. 162
02 SPECTRUM p. 162
03 ISOLATOR p. 162
04 LOW BOOST p. 162
05 SUPER FILTER p. 163
06 STEP FILTER p. 163
07 ENHANCER p. 163
08 AUTO WAH p. 164
09 HUMANIZER p. 164
10 SPEAKER SIMULATOR p. 164
11 PHASER p. 165
12 STEP PHASER p. 165
13 MULTI STAGE PHASER p. 165
14 INFINITE PHASER p. 165
15 RING MODULATOR p. 166
16 STEP RING MODULATOR p. 166
17 TREMOLO p. 166
18 AUTO PAN p. 166
19 STEP PAN p. 166
20 SLICER p. 167
21 ROTARY p. 167
22 VK ROTARY p. 167
23 CHORUS p. 168
24 FLANGER p. 168
25 STEP FLANGER p. 168
26 HEXA-CHORUS p. 169
27 TREMOLO CHORUS p. 169
28 SPACE-D p. 169
29 3D CHORUS p. 169
30 3D FLANGER p. 170
31 3D STEP FLANGER p. 170
32 2BAND CHORUS p. 170
33 2BAND FLANGER p. 171
34 2BAND STEP FLANGER p. 171
35 OVERDRIVE p. 172
36 DISTORTION p. 172
37 VS OVERDRIVE p. 172
38 VS DISTORTION p. 172
39 GUITAR AMP SIMULATOR p. 172
40 COMPRESSOR p. 173
41 LIMITER p. 173
42 GATE p. 173
43 DELAY p. 173
44 LONG DELAY p. 174
45 SERIAL DELAY p. 174
46 MODULATION DELAY p. 174
47 3TAP PAN DELAY p. 175
48 4TAP PAN DELAY p. 175
49 MULTI TAP DELAY p. 175
50 REVERSE DELAY p. 175
51 SHUFFLE DELAY p. 176
52 3D DELAY p. 176
53 TIME CTRL DELAY p. 176
54 LONG TIME CTRL DELAY p. 177
55 TAPE ECHO p. 177
56 LOFI NOISE p. 177
57 LOFI COMPRESS p. 178
58 LOFI RADIO p. 178
59 TELEPHONE p. 178
60 PHONOGRAPH p. 178
61 PITCH SHIFTER p. 179
62 2VOICE PITCH SHIFTER p. 179
63 STEP PITCH SHIFTER p. 179
64 OVERDRIVE
65 OVERDRIVE
66 OVERDRIVE
67 DISTORTION
68 DISTORTION
69 DISTORTION
70 ENHANCER
71 ENHANCER
72 ENHANCER
73 CHORUS
74 FLANGER
75 CHORUS
76 SYMPATHETIC RESONANCE p. 182
77 REVERB p. 183
78 GATED REVERB p. 183


V-Synth GT Effects List:

01: Parametric EQ ParaEQ (p. 8)
02: Graphic EQ GrapEQ (p. 8)
03: Resonant Filter Reso F (p. 8)
04: Isolator and Filter Isolatr (p. 9)
05: Distortion / OD DS / OD (p. 9)
06: Amp Simulator GtrAmp (p. 10)
07: Auto Wah At Wah (p. 11)
08: Humanizer Humzr (p. 11)
09: Dynamic Processor Dyna P (p. 12)
10: Tape Echo Simulator T Echo (p. 12)
11: Stereo Delay St Dly (p. 13)
12: Multi Tap Delay TpDly (p. 14)
13: Reverse Delay Rvs Dly (p. 14)
14: Vocal Echo VoEcho (p. 15)
15: Band Pass Delay BP Dly (p. 15)
16: Analog Delay->Chorus AD>Cho (p. 16)
17: Digital Chorus Dg Cho (p. 16)
18: Space Chorus Sp Cho (p. 17)
19: Hexa Chorus Hx Cho (p. 17)
20: Analog Flanger An Flgr (p. 18)
21: BOSS Flanger BS Flgr (p. 18)
22: Step Flanger St Flgr (p. 19)
23: Analog Phaser AnPhsr (p. 19)
24: Digital Phaser DgPhsr (p. 20)
25: Rotary Rotary (p. 20)
26: Tremolo/Auto Pan Tr/Pan (p. 21)
27: Stereo Pitch Shifter P Shift (p. 21)
28: OD/DS->Cho/Flg OD>Cho (p. 22)
29: OD/DS->Delay OD>Dly (p. 22)
30: Cho/Flg->Delay Ch>Dly (p. 23)
31: Enh->Cho/Flg Eh>Cho (p. 23)
32: Enh->Delay Eh>Dly (p. 24)
33: Vocal Multi VoclMT (p. 24)
34: Guitar Multi Gtr MT (p. 25)
35: Bass Multi Bas MT (p. 26)
36: EP Multi EP MT (p. 27)
37: Keyboard Multi Kbd MT (p. 28)
38: Phonograph Phono (p. 29)
39: Radio Tuning Radio (p. 29)
40: Bit Rate Converter BitCnv (p. 30)
41: Pseudo Stereo Pse St (p. 30)


Jupiter-80 Effects List:


01 EQUALIZER p. 44
02 SPECTRUM p. 44
03 ISOLATOR p. 44
04 LOW BOOST p. 44
05 SUPER FILTER p. 45
06 STEP FILTER p. 45
07 ENHANCER p. 46
08 AUTO WAH p. 46
09 HUMANIZER p. 47
10 SPEAKER SIMULATOR p. 47
11 PHASER p. 48
12 STEP PHASER p. 48
13 MULTI STAGE PHASER p. 49
14 INFINITE PHASER p. 49
15 RING MODULATOR p. 50
16 STEP RING MODULATOR p. 50
17 TREMOLO p. 51
18 AUTO PAN p. 51
19 STEP PAN p. 52
20 SLICER p. 52
21 ROTARY p. 53
22 VK ROTARY p. 53
23 CHORUS p. 54
24 FLANGER p. 54
25 STEP FLANGER p. 55
26 HEXA-CHORUS p. 55
27 TREMOLO CHORUS p. 56
28 SPACE-D p. 56
29 3D CHORUS p. 57
30 3D FLANGER p. 57
31 3D STEP FLANGER p. 58
32 2BAND CHORUS p. 58
33 2BAND FLANGER p. 59
34 2BAND STEP FLANGER p. 59
35 OVERDRIVE p. 60
36 DISTORTION p. 60
37 VS OVERDRIVE p. 60
38 VS DISTORTION p. 60
39 GUITAR AMP SIMULATOR p. 61
40 COMPRESSOR p. 61
41 LIMITER p. 62
42 GATE p. 62
43 DELAY p. 63
44 LONG DELAY p. 63
45 SERIAL DELAY p. 64
46 MODULATION DELAY p. 64
47 3TAP PAN DELAY p. 65
48 4TAP PAN DELAY p. 65
49 MULTI TAP DELAY p. 66
50 REVERSE DELAY p. 66
51 SHUFFLE DELAY p. 67
52 3D DELAY p. 67
53 TIME CTRL DELAY p. 68
54 LONG TIME CTRL DELAY p. 68
55 TAPE ECHO p. 69
56 LOFI NOISE p. 69
57 LOFI COMPRESS p. 70
58 LOFI RADIO p. 70
59 TELEPHONE p. 70
60 PHONOGRAPH p. 71
61 PITCH SHIFTER p. 71
62 2VOICE PITCH SHIFTER p. 72
63 STEP PITCH SHIFTER p. 72
64 OVERDRIVE ➝ CHORUS p. 73
65 OVERDRIVE ➝ FLANGER p. 73
66 OVERDRIVE ➝ DELAY p. 74
67 DISTORTION ➝ CHORUS p. 74
68 DISTORTION ➝ FLANGER p. 74
69 DISTORTION ➝ DELAY p. 74
70 ENHANCER ➝ CHORUS p. 75
71 ENHANCER ➝ FLANGER p. 75
72 ENHANCER ➝ DELAY p. 76
73 CHORUS ➝ DELAY p. 76
74 FLANGER ➝ DELAY p. 77
75 CHORUS ➝ FLANGER p. 77
76 SYMPATHETIC RESONANCE p. 78


plus FIVE independent 16-Step Sequencers in the JP-80's MFX section for:

-Pitch
-Filter
-Ring Modulator
-Pan
-Slicer


This could have been like Omnisphere as hardware synth.
In fact, I was able to recreate some Omnisphere sounds quite well with the JP-80, especially those unique Omnisphere string sounds...Try to recreate some JP-80 sounds on Omnisphere and you won't succeed in many cases...
It is still a fun synth to work with.
...just as any good and timeless quality musical instrument will always remain a fun thing to work with...
It has a lot of great sounds along with a lot that aren't great plus lots of limitations.
So then delete or overwrite the factory sounds which you don't like and create your own sounds, which is so easy and fruitful on the JP-80!

There are limitations as on any synth, but there are much more options and possibilities, if you look at it in the right way. Your own imagination and programming skills are the only limits...
If it had come out 3 years earlier than it did at a few hundred dollars less it would have made sense. Roland has some catching up to do.
This is your subjective view. But of course, we all would be happy with an OS update release in form of a Jupiter-80, Version 3. But I guess this will never happen.

In my view, the JP-80 is still the best digital synth, Roland has built to this day and it will become a digital Roland classic...
The Jupiter 80 could have been a mind blowing synth but instead it's just a pretty good synth.
I fully disagree... ;)

The Jupiter-80's sound IS mind-blowing!

Image


PS: "Dany2" = former member "Dany" (messed up the registered email address on purpose, which prevents further access, as my former Yahoo account has been hacked...)
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PauloF
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by PauloF »

I was reading this post and wondering... This Dany2 has exactly the same writing style as our Dany colleague...
And then at the end of the post saw the note ;-)

I have just three things to comment:

1- The majority of people is missing what these beasts are good at: tweak-ability and power to create almost any sound. They are not preset machines at all...

2- For accuracy purposes, the V-Synth GT has 2x 4 part poly Step Sequencers too, the V-Synth has one, apart from that there is no comparison possible, as the V's have only one MFX per engine.

3- liked your comparison with AkaiPro SynthStation lol ;-D

Cheers
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cello
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by cello »

Great (and long!) post Dany! A very thorough examination of the strengths of the JP-80 - I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusion as that is how I find the JP-80 - mind-blowingly powerful and creative!

It's worth having a look at this video - it is a recent further explanation of what really happens with SN Acoustic 'under the hood' - again shows how powerful the JP-80 is. The only thing I would add to the video is that when's he talking about the cello, he doesn't mention harmonics. String harmonics are present by playing out of the range of the cello (higher) and then a gentle touch on the key produces the harmonic :)

Vid here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HsQHPFMGgI
trrstrl
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Re: Tweakability? @Artemio

Post by trrstrl »

I guess my post turned into a bit of a gripe session of what the Jupiter 80 could have been. I have plenty of synths and enjoy all of them. I am well aware of the programmability of the Jupiter 80 and that to get the best out of it you should program your own sounds. That goes for any synth.

I agree with much of what Dany 2 said. Some things I disagree with, and some are just differences of opinion. For example if you want something to sound analog then you don't want it to sound "better than analog", you just want an accurate emulation. Other companies do a better job of emulating classic roland synths than roland does, which is too bad. The jp8000/8080 has a more organic sound even though technically it's not as powerful. I agree that the Jupiter 80 has a sound of it's own. That's a good thing. I really enjoy programming on it. I still think they could have done better. I believe they might be confusing quantity for quality. Having 30 oscillators going all at once isn't necesarily a good sounding thing. You can do cool things with that extra power but more doesn't always mean better. Thirty hamburgers does not equal a steak. Personally I would have preferred the ability to use those oscillators in a more modular way than just stacking.

I don't understand the suggestion that an ipad would have been a better choice. I only suggested that some of the synths on an ipad are more powerful and better analog emulations. Arturia's isem, waldorf's nave, and propellerhead's thor are examples. Just my opinion. Hardware manufacturers need to keep this in mind, as well as what is going on in the software world.

Regarding the effects I was thinking of the cosm filter effects in the V-Synth. My mistake for not being clearer. I would have liked to see some of those included because they expand the synthesis possibilities. The live sets don't interact, they just sit side by side. Seems like a lost opportunity. Same goes for all those lfos. How about being able to have lfo 1 affect lfo 2 and so on. More modulations on the synthesis level would have been cool. This brings up a point that I guess I disagree with. While I think you can do some omnisphere type stuff on the Jupiter 80, omnisphere can much of what the jupiter can do. The exception is the acoustic behavior modelling stuff.

Bringing up Trillian is a good point. Even though Trillian has thousands of samples, it doesn't always seem as if you are playing a real bass as much as on the Jupiter 80. It varies depending on the sound of course. The acoustic and electric basses on the Jupiter 80 are excellent. They are fun and inspiring to play. As far as the guitars go, I realize you can program your own guitars. But why waste space with junk and then turn around and put nice sounding electric guitars on your next model (Integra 7). This is what I mean when I say that roland isn't thinking through to completion at times. If you are going to offer up an instrument as your premium synthesizer with your latest innovations, why not give it the best of what you have as long as it doesn't step on something else in your lineup? Or, if you are going to do tone wheel modelling why not include physical drawbars or make the touchscreen multitouch so you can move more than one drawbar at a time.

One of the things not talked about much is the recorder. It is a great idea. If you do a little planning you can do complete songs with as many instruments as you want, without ever leaving the instrument or hooking up a computer. I wish they could utilise the screen to allow mixing of your tracks at a later point, but even so it is a great feature.

I respect everyone's opinion and my comments aren't just to pick on this synth. I still think it is a great synth both visually and sonically. I also believe roland shouldn't be so close ended. Maybe it is because I think roland has the best potential that I get disappointed. I have owned and played more roland gear than any of the other manufacturers. I don't see that changing yet. Roland's V-Synth is one of the best synths ever, but I find plenty of shortcomings with it as well. So I guess I stand by my "great, but flawed" opinion.
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