J80 Price - Ouch!

[EJ2]

Well, of course I don't agree about Roland giving it all away. Korg did manage to dig back into the past for the OASYS and KRONOS and then into the present.
Past:
- LAC1 (Legacy Analog) recreated the MS-20, MonoPoly, and Poly Six
- AL-1 Analog Synth reworked and vastly improved on the likes of MOSS/Z1, Prophecy, and Trinity
- MOD-7 is an FM synth on steroids that can even load every DX-7 sounds available
- CX-3 Tone Wheel Organ goes beyond the original released in 1980
Present:
- HD-1 High Definition (sample based) Synth with wave sequencing a la Wavestation
- SGX-1 Premium Pianos (even a die hard Yamaha tester admitted they were the best piano he's heard)
- EP-1 MDS Electric Pianos ( he said mostly the same for these EPs)
- STR-1 Strings engine, but it goes beyond that (eg. use a string model to create a new instrument based on a horn etc.

Now, if that ain't giving a **** load of R&D away, I don't know what is. When the buzz about Roland's new synth began to air, many of us thought Roland (a much larger corporation) would answer with their own style of presenting something similar. Unfortunately, they are still stuck in repackage mode. They could have answered Korg, but they didn't. That's sad.

Cheers,
Jim (EJ2)

[Mystic38]

you are a riot ...lol,

if anything is repackaged its the kronos.. its a cheap version of oasys plus pc plugins.. not one single new development is in that board...is it likely to be the best workstation for a year or so?..sure.. but dont call it new technology...

the jp80 is not repackaged anything.. and if you cannot see that i cannot help you..


will the kronos be the best selling worstation for a year?.. probably ..is it a landmark board that folks will be after in 5 years..umm i doubt it. is the kronos relevant to a discussion of the jp80 price (aka this thread topic)..umm nope...

Unfortunately, they are still stuck in repackage mode. They could have answered Korg, but they didn't. That's sad.

Cheers,
Jim (EJ2)

[Devnor]

I've pre-ordered a Jupiter 80 :)

What I love about Kronos is EP engine. The sounds are frigging sweet. Pianos too but they need some tweaks. Analog engines sound great too there is plenty to love about Kronos. Personally I didnt want another fan in the mix - at least where this keyboard was going to sit. Eventually I'll pickup a K61 no doubt.

Kronos recycled? Unless you've owned an Oasys it's not recycled for you :) But my money & faith is on Roland...sometimes you gotta root for the underdog :) Everything they are offering is all new tech in one big synth.

[realtrance]

The thing that keeps happening, over and over again, to Roland is that, upon launch, everyone on the internet says the new instrument is too expensive for what it is, that it's repackaging of existing tech, that it sounds like carp, that the interface is too complicated, etc. etc. etc..... and then a year or two later, everyone thinks it's the bee's knees and wants one and is still shocked at how expensive said instrument remains, even on the used market.

I think it's all just a conspiracy by poor teenagers with nothing else but time on their hands, wishing they could afford the latest and greatest high-end professional instruments, and thinking if they talk the synth down enough, it'll ship for $50 at launch and they'll be able to buy one. ;)

[mojkarma]

the jp80 is not repackaged anything..

Mystic38,
maybe you can't help us, but maybe we can help you in seeing if there is something repackaged on the JP80. Let's see what was already there from Roland before the JP80 was announced:

Piano:
Supernatural Piano in the RD700NX and even earlier as an expansion for the GX and factory installed in the GFX.

E-Piano:
ARX-02 for the Fantom G and factory included on the RD700GX and later.

Organ:
A well known part on the RD700 and later.

Brass:
ARX-03. I have it. There is absolutely nothing new what I heard from the brass sounds on the JP80 compared to my FG with the arx03.

Strings (Erhu):
Take a look and listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAAIZrdsmNs
BTW, look at the date when the clip was posted!

Strings (Violin):
Again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAAIZrdsmNs

Flute:
And again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAAIZrdsmNs

and if you cannot see that i cannot help you..

Do you know the joke about the ghost driver who drives on the highway and wonders why every single car drives in the wrong direction?

[realtrance]

Well, depending on how you look at it, EVERYTHING Roland's done since they delivered the D-50 has simply been a repackaging of that synth, with subtle advances in technology. ;)

[mojkarma]

Well, depending on how you look at it, EVERYTHING Roland's done since they delivered the D-50 has simply been a repackaging of that synth, with subtle advances in technology. ;)

More or less. And that is exactly what any other company (korg, yamaha, kurzweil) does in the same way. Therefor, saying that anything on the kronos is repackaged and nothing on the jp80 is an absolute nonsense.

[Quinnx.]

I think its got to the point now where people dont know what they want anymore..

its use to be that a synth was something that created artificial sound from basic sound waves.
then we wanted more realistic and we got the d50
and we wanted more so we got the fantom
and were still not happy?????
At this point i think we have been completely spoiled so much so.. that we forget what music is all about..
Its not about the gear
its not about supernatural
its not about whats new

Its all about You!
either you can create the music or you cannot
you should be good enough to do it with spoons tin cans or plastic buckets or anything else you can lay your hands on..
if you can do this your a real musician and dont need all this reclycled stuff..
so just go and make music and stop buying any more gear you dont need.

take a leaf from this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwtjihXq ... re=related

[audioird]

thanx Quinnx, don't you think this guy owns a Kronos or something like that ?

hahaha :)

you are right indeed.
Music is one thing, gear is another.
And I agree with your summary of synthesizer history.

I think we are just looking to pay less and have more... more what ? dunno. Maybe we got all we need and should start making music.
Your advice looks wise to me, except that ...

I already got a m-audio 61 controler and a computer with Ableton live on it. I sold all my other gears. I need to work a lot with Ableton's instruments (VA, FM, Sampler and others) and effects to get close to the sound I want. If only I could have a ready to go package with easy tweakings.

If you agree that music is also about sound, then you will understand what we are looking for toward gears.

[Quinnx.]

You see there is part of the problem too..
people sell there gear to get other stuff and this is no real solution.

When we purchase gear we should be looking at it long term and not short term untill the next one comes round.
If you have a computer then your already there and dont need to buy or sell anything unless your absolutely sure this setup will give you what you want.
My feeling is that software IS the future but you need to complement it with hardware.
I have seen VST softsysnth come along way in past years and there nothing that cannot be done with these and its cheaper too.
each has its place you just need to get the balance right..
The idea of moving to the next latest and greatest is a fools errand.
if your a studio producer it is cheaper to spend your $3000 on software and hardware than put it all in to a jp80 adn you will get more for your money.
if your a live person the jp does not offer enough to be the the power house for live.. you would be better getting a G or kronos.

with any of these options we have more than enough to make music
why do we need more or in the jp80 case even less for our money?

[PauloF]

You see there is part of the problem too..
people sell there gear to get other stuff and this is no real solution.

When we purchase gear we should be looking at it long term and not short term untill the next one comes round.
If you have a computer then your already there and dont need to buy or sell anything unless your absolutely sure this setup will give you what you want.
My feeling is that software IS the future but you need to complement it with hardware.
I have seen VST softsysnth come along way in past years and there nothing that cannot be done with these and its cheaper too.
each has its place you just need to get the balance right..
The idea of moving to the next latest and greatest is a fools errand.
if your a studio producer it is cheaper to spend your $3000 on software and hardware than put it all in to a jp80 adn you will get more for your money.
if your a live person the jp does not offer enough to be the the power house for live.. you would be better getting a G or kronos.

with any of these options we have more than enough to make music
why do we need more or in the jp80 case even less for our money?

Quinnx,
I see your point and agree in principle, but let Roland deploy the JP-80 and then complain about it...
It seems premature making assumptions like that even before you touched the board.
Maybe you are right at the end, who knows? but give them a brake, will you?
Despite the criticism they have made a good job with the Fantom G...so, why not waiting a little longer for the real thing to came out, and then we can (positively) criticize it at will.
Just MHO.
Take care
Paulo

[Mystic38]

+1

After all, its is the sound quality that counts... folks do pay $100,000 for a Steinway.. when they can buy a casio for $49 :)

So, while i dont think the JP80 would be my next board I am excited to hear it.. and many congrats to Roland if it does live up to the hype..

...so many synths..so little time!..

Quinnx,
I see your point and agree in principle, but let Roland deploy the JP-80 and then complain about it...
It seems premature making assumptions like that even before you touched the board.
Maybe you are right at the end, who knows? but give them a brake, will you?
Despite the criticism they have made a good job with the Fantom G...so, why not waiting a little longer for the real thing to came out, and then we can (positively) criticize it at will.
Just MHO.
Take care
Paulo

[Devnor]

either you can create the music or you cannot
you should be good enough to do it with spoons tin cans or plastic buckets or anything else you can lay your hands on..
if you can do this your a real musician and dont need all this reclycled stuff..
so just go and make music and stop buying any more gear you dont need.

If you want to create the next great spoon opus please be my guest. But why spoons? Couldnt you just stomp your bare feet on the ground & clap your hands? Maybe it will rain.

[Parsifal]

Mokjarma, you may be right about the individual note sound but please take into account V-synth polyphony.
JP-80 is miles ahead in terms of polyphony. Maybe a JD-800 / V-synth knob approach would have been more appropriate IMO. However you cannot say that specs have not increased over time.

You may say there's a "spec increase" in Kronos over past keyboards but I'd dare to say that's not enough.
Polyphony counts many times more than file management or aesthetics or ergonomy on a keyboard.

Kronos may be a convenient keyboard but IMO is not a spectacular one.

On the other hand, if Jupiter 80 demos sound AT LEAST as good as AP synthesis / Supernatural / SXR expansions / other sound waves, I think that JP-80 may be the opposite: a spectacular, yet not a convenient one.

For me, the biggest drawback (aside from the prohibitive price) is the weight of the keyboard. I know it's 76 note but - heck! - it's lightweight. Shouldn't lightweight be taken literally?

[mojkarma]

I was simply stating that saying how the Kronos is repackaged while almost everything on the JP80 is new development is nonsense.
And a bigger one too!

Polyphony counts many times more than file management or aesthetics or ergonomy on a keyboard.

This is maybe how you see the things. I on the other side never run into polyphony problems with my FG.
But I would be very careful with the statement how polyphony counts many times more than ergonomy!
The more you work with a keyboard, the more ergonomy becomes important. A keyboard can sound great, but if you are frustrated day in day out about how to make this or that, you'll hate the keyboard and finally sell it sooner or later.
As a live keyboarder (and if I may say, a very experienced one), I already see things on the JP80 which are far away from being optimal or at least well thought out.
At first there is the structure on the JP80:
It has four parts which are combined into something called registration. That is your main mode which you'll use live (remember, the JP80 is a performance keyboard).
There is a percussion part. Dedicated exclusively to percussion/drums. If you play in a conventional band, you'll probably never use it. So, it's a useless/dead part for you. Then there is a solo part. We still don't know what it actually means. Can any single supernatural sound be the solo part, or just selected sounds which Roland dedicated to be the solo part. If you are restricted to what Roland considers as solo, you may still have situations where you can't use that part because it doesn't contain the sound you need. That would also mean that you just lost two sliders which do nothing because you don't use those parts!
Now, imagine you have to create a registration for a song which your band plays. Suppose you need 6 sounds/patches which you'll use as split or layer to create the final registration for that tune.
You'll start with one live setup, but it's limited to 4 parts. So, you have to take the second live set to program the remaining 2 parts. If it's a registration with 3 or even 4 split points while some of the parts are layered, just imagine the joy doing it first on the lower part, then on the upper part and finally putting those two live sets together into a registration while not loosing the whole picture!
Remember, it's a performance keyboard. You'll not use the percussion part, maybe you'll not use the solo part for that song and you are left with two sliders for controlling for example the volume. But those sliders on the jp80 will not control individual parts inside the live sets. One slider will control the whole live set! You want to turn the pad sound you play with your left hand a little bit down? You can't because the pad sound is maybe just one part of your lower live set! You want to make a solo patch sound louder? You can't because the solo sound is part of the upper live set and turns up the volume of another part and you don't want it sound louder!
It's a performance keyboard and you can't control individual sounds inside a registration as you can on any other keyboard these days.
Take the Fantom G as an example: there is one live set, it has 8 parts, you start filling the slots with sounds, make the splits, layers and each slider controls one part. Simple and easy. Now, Roland makes a performance keyboard and suddenly the most simple tasks becomes complicated.
Then, there are 256 registrations. Each registration can hold up to two live sets. It means you can use up to 512 different live sets across 256 registrations. But there are 2560 live sets in the memory of the JP80. What should I do with the remaining 2000 live sets??? Remember, it's a performance keyboard. If it's your only keyboard on stage, you'll switch a lot of sounds even during the same song. Just remember how for example Jordan Rudess switches different setups while playing one song. 256 registrations these days is not a lot. Why not at least 512 like on the FG? I'm limited to 256 registrations, but on the other side I have 2560 live sets and I can use only a fifth of them? I don't see mode buttons on the surface of the JP80. How do we switch between registration and live set. How do I recall those live sets? I don't see a numeric block. By dialing? Live on stage? There are 4 letter buttons under/in front of the keyboard and 8 numbered buttons from 1 to 8. It's clear that you can't dial with that any number you want.

So, ergonomy is IMHO one of the most important things on a keyboard and tipically something where Roland always makes some more or less serious mistakes. I would never preorder this thing without studying painstakingly the manual. It could easily turn into a ergonomic nightmare, depending on what kind of music you play and how complex your live setups are.