J80 Price - Ouch!

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2TIM316
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J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by 2TIM316 »

$3500??? Doesn't even play user samples? Ouch! I mean it sounds outstanding for a non-analog. Even if it makes its "analog" via samples as Artimy has stated, it still sounds great. But in this day $3500 can buy you a helluva lot more sound and sequencing power than what I'm seeing in the specs. If I had the keyboard gig on a network television show I'd throw one up on my stand. But in the real world where dollars count, I just can't see the value in it. Isn't the 73 key (weighted action) KRONOS about the same price? Seems to do way more.

On the software side, considering 2011 MESSE announcements, look at Steinberg's Halion 4. Dave Polich, renowned sound designer says the Halion 4 engine (incl HalionSonic) has the best "analog" sound he's ever heard. I think it's gonna be around $400 with a 15 gig sound library. Throw that on a 15" MacBookPro w/ Solid State Drive and a decent keyboard and you're still well under $3,000 with way more flexibility.

Once again this Roland guy just can't seem to find the value in Roland hardware considering the competition in both hardware and software. If someone leaves me a $3,000 gift card at the Roland store I'm in. Otherwise will observe from afar.
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Artemiy
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by Artemiy »

Tim, Roland for sure isn't targetting people who'd be more happy with a software based setup. There is a difference when you're PRODUCING and when you are PLAYING. For the latter, you can't beat an instant-on package with zero setup.

As for the price, I too think that this is a bit higher than I'd like to see. I mean, about 7 years ago we had a Fantom-X for about $2500, and 7 years later I bet a 2x more powerful chip should cost the same. But I guess Roland is doing a lot of custom chip manufacturing which contributes to the price. Korg uses Intel chips which can give them a price advantage. Plus, they have a legacy of software products from the past decade (Oasys, Mac/PC plugins) which they re-used here.
mojkarma
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by mojkarma »

Yes, but neither Roland started out from scratch.
Soundwise, Roland also uses a lot of what they already produced.
Supernatural: there are the ARX cards for the brass, e. piano and a. piano part. The organ probably stems from their VK series. The supernatural violin is present on the V-synth (look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAAIZrdsmNs).
There Roland calls it Articulative Phrase Synthesis!
The rest of the samples are from older keyboards.
So, at the end, Roland actually use the same scheme as Korg. They put a lot of into, what they already have.
Maybe Rolands cost for the processor are higher if it's a proprietary one, but on the other side Korg offers a SSD, 2 Gb of memory, some more hardware connections (more outputs, two inputs), a slightly bigger screen, an additional joystick and all this little things could bring the price probably to the same level hardware wise.
The problem of the J 80 remains in the sense that it's a closed system without the possibility to load/create new sounds from new samples. The instrument is an option only for those people who know that they will never need a sound which isn't covered by the internal Rom.
Because of that the J80 disqualifies itself for a lot of people to be used as the main board on stage. The next question is, how many people are eager to pay 3500 bucks for a second keyboard in their rig?
The Kronos for example also uses a "special" piano modeling for the acoustic and electric piano without audible key switch layers. There's also an organ emulation and unlike the J80, it can be controlled as the real thing with its 9 sliders.
What's left exclusively on the J80 is a violin, a trumpet and an acoustic guitar. Since the J80 is dedicated to the live performers, everyone has to ask himself, how often does he use a violin/trumpet/guitar in his performance and does this justify the price for the instrument while for the same price one can buy a full blown workstation as an open system.
For the violin and acoustic guitar part, I know for sure that I could achieve nearly the same level of realism by using dedicated sample libraries and a clever programing. The violin, trumpet or the acoustic guitar will not sound realistic just because Roland integrated some supernatural technology where you just have to play as you "normally" do. You have to know how to play these instruments naturally and that's probably the most difficult part.
In most cases, coming to the studio or a highly professional gig and saying "hey, I have a supernatural trumpet on my keyboard, no need to hire a trumpet player for that tune" will not do the trick.
Amazing One
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by Amazing One »

Hi guys!

If the JUPITER-80 does half of what the specifications say it can do, it will be well worth the price!

Roland…I LOVE THE SOUND!!! Bravo guys!

In my opinion (at least judging from the online videos), the JUPITER-80 is the best sounding synthesizer I have heard (and I have been at this for a looong time)! Seriously, this thing sounds like a well crafted piece of awesome!!! And the demos I have listened to so far are from internet videos (youtube etc)! How in the world does the JUPITER-80 sound so incredible even after being degraded by you tubes audio compression processes! I can’t even begin to think how it will sound in person!

On the other hand, I went to Korg’s site and listened to the Kronos, I entered their site full of excitement and hope, believing that one of the big three had finally put everything I wanted into one unit! I went in feeling one way, but I came out feeling, well…I don’t like to use strong language, but considering the circumstances, I feel it’s justifiable-I left feeling… disgusted, there, I said it! It felt like I had just been kicked in the nuts by the woman of my dreams!

How could something that looked so good sound so bad?!

Korg has very high quality audio examples (24 bit 48khz wav) of the Kronos on their web page, that were recorded from the Kronos straight to it’s internal hard drive, that means that those examples are the true, uncompressed, straight from the source, what you hear in those examples is what you get sounds of the Kronos!

The JUPITER-80 sounds amazing, even in a you tube video, recorded with a camera. And the Kronos sounds like, well… a korg,..(lol)..like a well crafted piece of crap, even when recorded in the best way possible (as korg did)! It’s no wonder the price is reasonable. They obviously substituted a high quality sound system for all the fancy gadgets and a lower price tag.

Another thing that really impresses me about the JUPITER-80 is the fact that it is a Virtual Analog synth and can have 27 oscillators, I’m not sure if people understand how insanely awesome that is! The JUPITER-80 is seriously going to take sound design to a new level for hardware synths, not to mention the awesome effect setup and virtual tone wheel technology. Also, supernatural technology is the true “game changer“!

I cant wait to learn more about what Roland put into the JUPITER-80, but so far, I am really impressed!
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Artemiy
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by Artemiy »

Amazing One wrote:In my opinion (at least judging from the online videos), the JUPITER-80 is the best sounding synthesizer I have heard (and I have been at this for a looong time)!
Do you live in a cave? JP-80 is great in it's own way, but saying it's "the bestest synth EVAR!!!" reveals your limited experience.
Amazing One wrote:the Kronos sounds like, well… a korg,..(lol)..like a well crafted piece of crap
Well but this is totally untrue. Were you sent by Roland Secret Licking Agency? I have spent considerable time with Korg's software and it sounds top notch and packs a lot of character. And I did sound design for Roland (including JUPITER-80) since 2004. So I know what I am saying.

Let's not bring JUPITER-80's image up by bashing other instruments - this does Roland (and you) no favor at all!
Amazing One
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by Amazing One »

Hey!..LOL!

This is no way to talk to new members..lol!

But I think you have misunderstood what I said Artemiy, I did not say it was the best synth ever, I said “the JUPITER-80 is the best sounding synthesizer I have heard”. I think the V-Synth GT is the best hardware Synth ever, but when speaking of sound, I think we can both agree that it’s a matter of opinion. I happen to think the JUPITER-80 is the best SOUNDING synthesizer ever. We all have our opinions, and being that I have been at this a long time (I am by no means inexperienced…lol) I feel that many musicians will agree with me.

I do sound design myself, again… it’s my opinion that the examples I listened to on korgs web page, concerning the Kronos, sounded like pure crap (especially the piano). You can not judge me on what I think sounds good, and others here have bashed on many products from all the big manufactures. It’s part of being a costumer and a musician, it is normal for one to encourage others to consider gear they like and discourage others from considering gear they would not recommend. I do it because I feel my opinion is valuable and I want to contribute to the overall opinions of musicians everywhere.

I was not trying to bring Jupiter’s image up, just giving my opinion. Also, I do not believe I am doing Roland or myself a disservice, being someone who is a live performer and one who has been around a lot of musicians, I feel that, once people listen to the demos on korgs web page, they too will believe that the Kronos sounds like crap, at least many of them will.

Just my opinion Artemiy.
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Artemiy
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by Artemiy »

I responded to you like that because what you write is laughable. Good luck judging instruments by compressed mp3 demos.
Amazing One
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by Amazing One »

It seems that I have been misunderstood again here Artemiy.

The examples on korgs web page are not compressed mp3 demos, they are 24 bit 48khz wav files recorded straight to the Kronos internal hard drive. And it’s my opinion that the JUPITER-80 sounds much better even played back as a compressed mp3 file, such as the stuff we have heard on the internet.

In my line of work, it’s vital that one knows how to judge that which has the potential to become popular. Anyone is free to go to korgs page and have a listen, I do not think I will be the only one that believes the Kronos sounds like crap, at least the demos they currently have online.

But let’s not get off on the wrong foot here Artemiy, I’m not saying the Kronos does not have some powerful applications, and I am sure you agree that the JUPITER-80 sounds awesome. Let’s just say that, so far, I like the JUPITER-80 better than Kronos and you should give me a proper Roland Clan welcome. :-)
mojkarma
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by mojkarma »

Amazing One wrote: , but when speaking of sound, I think we can both agree that it’s a matter of opinion.
Yes, but it's a big difference whether you say that you don't like something or when you say that it's crap. For me, people who uses the word "crap" to describe a keyboard, should in no way be taken serious. There are dozens of people on different forums calling the Jupiter 80 crap. Go figure.
Amazing One wrote:I do sound design myself, again… it’s my opinion that the examples I listened to on korgs web page, concerning the Kronos, sounded like pure crap (especially the piano).
So, you do sound design and that qualifies you for a valued opinion that especially the Kronos piano sounds like pure crap!!??
Take a listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4JZgxPDi0I

If that's crappy in your ears, then I'd really like to hear what piano sound you use in your music.
Amazing One wrote:it is normal for one to encourage others to consider gear they like and discourage others from considering gear they would not recommend. I do it because I feel my opinion is valuable and I want to contribute to the overall opinions of musicians everywhere.
For a halfway serious musician, it's normal to point out good or bad aspects of an instrument. As soon as it comes to the sound, the only valuable opinion is to advice people to try the instrument and get an own opinion about how something sounds.
Amazing One wrote:I feel that, once people listen to the demos on korgs web page, they too will believe that the Kronos sounds like crap, at least many of them will.
There are really people who judge and make buying decisions based on demo sounds on a manufacturers website. The serious ones will go to a music shop, sit in front of the instrument and try it out.
Nobody will abandon the Kronos as a possible choice just because some forum member Amazing One told on some forum in his first post ever that a keyboard sounds like crap.
You actually told more about yourself than about the Kronos.
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Artemiy
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by Artemiy »

mojkarma wrote:For me, people who uses the word "crap" to describe a keyboard, should in no way be taken serious.
mojkarma wrote:Nobody will abandon the Kronos as a possible choice just because some forum member Amazing One told on some forum in his first post ever that a keyboard sounds like crap.
You actually told more about yourself than about the Kronos.
Subscribing every word.
Amazing One
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by Amazing One »

Hello mojkarma!
mojkarma wrote:
Amazing One wrote: , but when speaking of sound, I think we can both agree that it’s a matter of opinion.
Yes, but it's a big difference whether you say that you don't like something or when you say that it's crap. For me, people who uses the word "crap" to describe a keyboard, should in no way be taken serious. There are dozens of people on different forums calling the Jupiter 80 crap. Go figure.
Yes, theses are my first few post, and they will not be my last, I like it here, even though Artemiy is being stingy with the welcome...LOL! :-)

Crap is merely a colorful word I am using…My use of the word crap is defined by my understanding of what constitutes crap. Understand that we do not share the same definition concerning that which constitutes crap. Some will think that a Ferrari is crap and some will think it is amazing, your opinions are your own and you are welcome to keep them.

For me, the samples korg has on their web page is crap, others are free to feel as they wish, and I use the word from time to time when I feel that one thing is superior to another, it does not mean that I feel the Kronos is worthless, just means that, so far, I like what I have heard from the Jupiter 80 much better.

Personally, I feel that you, who judges others so harshly, condemning them, just because they use (from my point of view) a lighthearted word like crap, is the one who should not be taken seriously.
mojkarma wrote:
Amazing One wrote:I do sound design myself, again… it’s my opinion that the examples I listened to on korgs web page, concerning the Kronos, sounded like pure crap (especially the piano).
So, you do sound design and that qualifies you for a valued opinion that especially the Kronos piano sounds like pure crap!!??
Take a listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4JZgxPDi0I

If that's crappy in your ears, then I'd really like to hear what piano sound you use in your music.
That sounds better but it is still not close to the level of Roland’s supernatural pianos. All he did was drown the piano with reverb and he is a pretty good pianist, Roland’s supernatural pianos are much better sounding.
mojkarma wrote:
Amazing One wrote:it is normal for one to encourage others to consider gear they like and discourage others from considering gear they would not recommend. I do it because I feel my opinion is valuable and I want to contribute to the overall opinions of musicians everywhere.
For a halfway serious musician, it's normal to point out good or bad aspects of an instrument. As soon as it comes to the sound, the only valuable opinion is to advice people to try the instrument and get an own opinion about how something sounds.
I disagree, I do both, tell them to listen for themselves and give my opinion as a pianist, nothing wrong with that. And you have done the same with the link you provided and your quote above, you obviously feel the Kronos sounds good and have made it clear that I should consider listening to it, just the same as I did when I suggested the following, believing that it sounded bad…
Amazing One wrote:In my line of work, it’s vital that one knows how to judge that which has the potential to become popular. Anyone is free to go to korgs page and have a listen, I do not think I will be the only one that believes the Kronos sounds like crap, at least the demos they currently have online.
Here is a link to korgs official samples by the way… http://korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=598

And yes, I do think those sound (mainly the pianos) like crap compared to Roland’s supernatural pianos.
mojkarma wrote:
Amazing One wrote:I feel that, once people listen to the demos on korgs web page, they too will believe that the Kronos sounds like crap, at least many of them will.
There are really people who judge and make buying decisions based on demo sounds on a manufacturers website. The serious ones will go to a music shop, sit in front of the instrument and try it out.
Nobody will abandon the Kronos as a possible choice just because some forum member Amazing One told on some forum in his first post ever that a keyboard sounds like crap.
You actually told more about yourself than about the Kronos.
I was not asking anyone to abandon the Kronos, just I told Artemiy, I was just giving my opinion, same as you did and everyone else here, and so long as Artemiy is ok with it, I will continue to do so in a respectful manner.

And I am just fine with how I represented myself here, I can say that you told quite a bit about yourself as well, but I am willing to leave the matter behind.
Atlas5
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by Atlas5 »

CRAP, I thought that word was reserved for my music, i.e. "Country Rap".

All I can say is when a person uses the word crap to describe music equipment, (ie sound) they lose all credibility. As I believe all equipment is viable in the right application. And low and behold, crap, it's self, make no sound, except an associated grunt, so how can something sound like crap. Crap is something that comes out of the body, the mouth in this case.

Jupiter 80 is a little expensive, even if if can't sound crappy. This is a whole new level of pricing for me, I am going to have to figure out new methods of begging from the wife, I may have to make her feel guilty or something.
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PauloF
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by PauloF »

Atlas5 wrote:CRAP, I thought that word was reserved for my music, i.e. "Country Rap".

All I can say is when a person uses the word crap to describe music equipment, (ie sound) they lose all credibility. As I believe all equipment is viable in the right application. And low and behold, crap, it's self, make no sound, except an associated grunt, so how can something sound like crap. Crap is something that comes out of the body, the mouth in this case.

Jupiter 80 is a little expensive, even if if can't sound crappy. This is a whole new level of pricing for me, I am going to have to figure out new methods of begging from the wife, I may have to make her feel guilty or something.
Totally agree with Atlas5 and Mojkarma!!
They all have good and not so good areas, and none of them is the "best thing in the World", they are all good but yet different, different enough to please all souls, tastes and needs.

We were talking about the price, weren't we?
IMHO the price is a bit higher than I would expect (and like), but taking into consideration the comparison with the (unfortunately) "late" V-Synth-GT, it sounds about right, I gess.

Ah..by the way...welcome to the Clan!
;-)
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piaknowguy
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by piaknowguy »

Hi Amazing One!

I also wanted to take this opportunity to welcome you to the Roland Clan! As you can see, we are all just one big happy family here!!

Oh . . . and don't mind Artemiy! He DOES a little too much once in a while! ;-)
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Artemiy
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Re: J80 Price - Ouch!

Post by Artemiy »

And if I get an OVERDOES, I even ban people at random, just for giggles... or for hiccups... :-)
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