Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

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knolan
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Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by knolan »

Hi -

One of the Musikmesse videos has a Roland engineer say that te VA engine for the Jupiter 80 is new and was built from the ground up. I wonder does this mean it's brand new; or whether he is referring to the GAIA engine?

While I really like the GAIA (I own one), I would like it's bass end to be a bit stronger. And - despite it's excellent architecture, I would like more modulation options. It'd be excellent if the JP80 VA engine addressed these.

One of the features of the JP80 VA engine I noticed is the ability to set the amount of detune on the supersaw wave. That is very exciting - I find the standard one too detuned (I'm not into dance music) so this, for me, will make this otherwise excellent waveform much more flexibile.

If the same as the GAIA, I wonder if the JP80 will read/load GAIA programs?

Kevin.
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dbijoux
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by dbijoux »

Being a performance synth, I don't think you're going to see much development along the creative modulation lines. I would hope that it has matrix capabilities similar to the Fantom, but that may not even be the case.

What you do get is SuperNatural(read:more realistic) performance logic going behind the keys. In a sense, this isn't so much different intention than routing LFO's.

The question to me is how configureable it all will be.

On the Gaia engine, no, the patches definitely won't transfer over and they are in fact different synths(whether sharing some algorithms or not).
knolan
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by knolan »

I think you are undervaluing what Supernatural is in suggesting it's simply LFO related. For example, in just that Trumpet demo, each micro-tonal increase in pitch must correspond to some combination of triggering of multiple samples and/or formant shifting of fewer samples - all articulation scenario sensitive; coupled to very rapid (vastly faster than MIDI) scanning of the keyboard to interpret the playing pattern/style and attributing the correct articulation characteristics (themselves surely a bunch of sophisticated algorithms that mathematically describe a multitude of types 'playing'). So though I've no particular knowledge of the underlying technolgoy; I think this goes way beyond some sort of MIDI CC trickery.


And - even if the origin of the oscillators in the JP80 VA are different to those in GAIA, it looks like both those synth engines are very similar; so surely it quite plausible that GAIA patches might be readable by the JP80?

Kevin.
vladuca
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by vladuca »

JP-80 VA and GAIA are completely different engines. Also, tone blender is like SUPER matrix control.
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PauloF
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by PauloF »

vladuca wrote:JP-80 VA and GAIA are completely different engines. Also, tone blender is like SUPER matrix control.
@Vince,
Seems interesting. Could we have a "taste" of what is possible to do with the Tone Blender? a few examples, maybe?

Cheers
Paulo
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Grammar Wombat
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by Grammar Wombat »

Paulo, I am trying to get a taste for myself. But first, I need a distraction…
Tone Blender.jpg
Tone Blender.jpg (23.55 KiB) Viewed 6417 times
vladuca
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by vladuca »

Could we have a "taste" of what is possible to do with the Tone Blender?
Roland VA Margaritas anyone??? LOL
kday
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by kday »

Why everyone thinks the JP-80 has a separate virtual analog synth engine in it when it doesn't?

This misinformation isn't even printed on the specs of the keyboard. I would be the first to shout for joy but unfortunately folks, the JP-80 only plays back pcm samples of analog waveforms with SuperNatural Behavior Modelling.

SuperNatural Behavior Modelling is modelling of PCM wave samples and not a separate modelling synth engine capable of creating or modelling full instrument sounds within itself without the pcm waveforms. A real VA or physical modelling synth don't need wave samples like the JP-80 to model or play an instrument sound within itself. If I'm wrong could someone disprove any of this in the specs?

This is just to clear this up here, people are thinking the JP-80 has separate VA or physical modelling synth engines in it, but come to find out they been misled.

Now, not having a VA synth engine onboard in no way undermines the quality of thickness of the analog sounding synth tones the unit can produce. It still will make some of the most gorgeous sounds yet, but don't deceive yourself or others into believing the JP-80 is something it is not.
Devnor
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by Devnor »

If those top 5 waveform selections are samples with behavior mods well there's nothing like it on the market. "VA" is such an ambigious term and many VA sounds I hear are so layered & effects-laden they cease to become truely analog sounds (this is coming from someone who owns a Minimoog). As a musician all I care about is the sounds.

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realtrance
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by realtrance »

Devnor,

I'm totally with you; nobody but the Roland engineers really know what the underlying technology is, and at this point, JP-80 goes so far beyond either traditional VA or traditional sampling that it's really irrelevant to worry about whether a particular oscillator is a "modelled" wave or a "sampled" wave. Most traditional synthesizer waves are so simple that capturing them as a sample is really quite trivial.

It's where things go from there on the JP-80 I'm interested, and ultimately, as the key sound designer for Novation years ago, when Supernova was first released (guy who also did a lot of the sound design for Korg in the M1 era, btw) said to me: trust your ears.

That's what I trust more than any of the folderol.
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Artemiy
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by Artemiy »

I have heard so called "virtual analog" synths which sound incredibly low-quality compared to even the most basic Roland's sample-based synth like JUNO-Di. So of course I agree, it's the sound that matters, and we shouldn't care about what's inside. BTW I am using MASSIVE and Omnisphere a lot, and these both rely on large banks of sample waveforms... haven't had any issues with this fact, it even is much better to have a broad palette of waves instead of just square/sine/saw.
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V-CeeOh
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by V-CeeOh »

The acoustic sounds are generated from SuperNATURAL and Behavior Modeling Technologies. The synthesizer sounds can be generated using SuperNATURAL controlled analog modeling, or, from SuperNATURAL controlled PCM waveforms of which there are 350. This gives you the raw data of classic synths from the past.
This is how Dan describes it. In the very beggining I was surprised when Artemiy told us the Jupiter synthesizer part was actually based on PCM waves. I found it weird but since Artemiy actually programed sounds with it I took it as a fact. Then both Dan and Vince from Roland speak about analog modeling which is what I always assumed to be the true. From all the information we got now it still is what I assume and what really makes more sense, even from the sreenshots of the display - the Jupiter is also a VA
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Artemiy
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by Artemiy »

V-CeeOh wrote:This is how Dan describes it. In the very beggining I was surprised when Artemiy told us the Jupiter synthesizer part was actually based on PCM waves. I found it weird but since Artemiy actually programed sounds with it I took it as a fact. Then both Dan and Vince from Roland speak about analog modeling which is what I always assumed to be the true.
With all due respect to you, and to Vince and Dan, I do have my ears, V-CeeOh. And these were my conclusions I made with the prototype. Our Roland friends claim that this has been changed on the production version - and this can be true.

In any case, here is how you can tell if a sound generator is sample-based:
1. Detune two waveforms of the same type: you will hear that their phases restart with each keypress, because all samples start playing back from the beginning; on a real VA the oscillator always oscillates so each keypress will make a slightly different sound
2. Hold a note, and do a pitch-bend down an octave or more: you will hear that the sound looses brightness, because the sample's frequencies are all lowered together; a real VA oscillator is always generating new harmonics
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Artemiy
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by Artemiy »

V-CeeOh wrote:what really makes more sense, even from the sreenshots of the display - the Jupiter is also a VA
Hmmm... well, it's like judging whether the engine is petrol or diesel by the car exterior design.
Mystic38
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Re: Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

Post by Mystic38 »

Getting elitist over semantic definitions of how a waveform is created before it gets into memory is just plain silly....its all about the sound quality. period.

there is Analog and there isn't.. It really is as simple as that...The JP-80 isnt ..and I am very glad of that.

An Analog Modelling, aka Virtual Analog, Synth attempts to mimic by digital means the outputs and behaviours of an Analog synth.. So in this respect, you can modelling a particular oscillator waveform or you can sample it.. you still end up with a waveform in the digital domain... so as soon as you do any digital, as far as Analog is, you isn't.

IMO, the landmark synths, be them Analog or VA (ie: non-Analog) all had great source sounds but more importantly it was what they did WITH those source sounds that made them special... things such as modulation sequencers, step sequencers, multiple LFO/EG, multiple source/destination modulation matrix, arpeggiators, self-sync'ing oscillators, novel filter designs, morph control etc .. It is these things that provided unique sonic character to drool over and spark creativity and satisfaction in sound design...
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