Jupiter 80 VA engine - new or same as GAIA?

[V-CeeOh]

There is no such thing as a "True VA". That is defined by each developer independently, and the results may vary indeed. However, there is clearly a difference between a Synthesizer and Sampler (or sample playback device). And that is where we should be drawing the line.

Completely agree. And I think that is a hard exercise to do.
Let me try to explain my point of view:

1-
Take a guitar and use a sample/player device to record and play the sound you got from the guitar - let's call this a "Sampler". Run both the guitar and the Sampler sound through the same speaker system. Play a note on the guitar and sample it (I'm obviously admitting the sample is done at a fairly good resolution). Now play the guitar and the sample. You'll hear no difference, right?

2-
Play the same guitar note you did before but this time do it harder. Play the sample you did before. You'll hear a noticeable difference in the sound. The guitar note sounds brighter and louder. What can you do? You can do a new sample or you can create a method to "change" the playing of the sample ir order to make it sound brighter and louder.

3-
Play a different note on the guitar with just about the same velocity you did the first one. Play the sample. You'll hear a noticeable difference in the sound. What do you do? Again, you can sample this new sound or get a way to "change" the playing of the sample in order to change its pitch.

4-
Create a device that analyses all the elements and sound nuances, dynamics, pitch, harmonics, shape, building materials etc of a guitar. Make this so this device is capable of re-creating all these nuances in real-time. It doesn't do this by "recording/playing back" waves recorded from the guitar but by actually "generating" the sound according to your playing and real-time control. Play several notes on the guitar then play several notes on this device. You'll hear no difference in sound. The guitar would be the "analog" instrument and the device would be the "virtual analog" instrument.

5-
Replace the guitar with an analog Oscillator and repeat the procedures.

From my own POV:
On both points 2 and 3 when you play a sample, sample new sound waves or use a method to "change" the playing back of these sound waves you use a Rompler device, like the Fantom or the...GAIA.

On point 4 you get a device like the Jupiter-80, the Virus or the Nord Lead.
Now, some will certainly would want to go deeper on this and determine if ALL elements have been carefully analysed on point 4 and if/which some have or have not been left back. Some others will question if a mixture of methods haven't been used.
It's not clear for me to what extent this was done to build other recognisable VA synths like the Virus or the Nord Lead. But I think it definitely brings the Jupiter-80 to that group.

[V-CeeOh]

oh, I forgot to tell that I omitted following points from 5, cause you actually would need to repeat the procedure not only with oscillators but also with Filters, LFO, Envelopes etc and all the inter-action between them. But I guess you know what I meant

[RonF]

Thats a great description, V-CeeOh. It illustrates the vast differences in approaches to virtually re-creating an authentic "sound source". Be it a guitar, a sax, a drum, or a genuine analog oscillator component...developers have been seeking ways to reproduce with the greatest accuracy, feel, responsiveness, and dynamics...for years...using every known technology. Two technologies that seem to prevail as the most successful in this arena....are sample playback, and virtual re-creation in software. Both technologies vary greatly in application depending on the developer....with just as varying results.

You might consider, as a good example, the EWQL Symphonic Orchestra sample library, which just a few years ago was considered (among) the top of the heap for its realism. Now....you'll find it overshadowed by newer technology, such as seen in LA Scoring Strings, where scripting is employed with thousands of sample layers to dynamically respond in real time to your playing technique. Point being.....technology evolves...and there is more than one way to employ an approach which seeks a final result. Each of these technologies and approaches has its pros and cons. Some are better than others. And as the end user, you can decide for yourself what works or feels or responds better than the other. Some users may be very considerate of the little details and nuances of how these differ.....others may hear a Sax sample and think...sounds like a sax!..thats good enough for me, it fits in my mix and its not important beyond that. And this is fine.....because its the music that matters most in the end. But this certainly does not mean that these differences in technology do not exist, or do not matter. There is a clear difference between sample playback technologies and virtual sound re-creation technologies. One is not "better" that then other by default. Each has its definite pros and cons. And within each genre of technology, different products are better than others....often varying greatly in how it is implemented vs the other.

So...with this said....its important in my studio to use all of the latest and best technology. I find the Fantom G remarkable as a sampler, for example. I find Omnisphere to be on par *at times* with the best VA's that I have heard. But there are just some things that my Virus TI can do that Omnisphere or a Fantom G can never do......and vice versa. The JP80 is an outstanding sounding synthesizer.....which uses a technology which is different than sample playback (alongside also using sample playback). We can spend half the day discussing why these technologies differ, and why it matters to one user over another...or why some users cannot tell the difference, or give a darn one way or the other....but what's the point. It is what it is. A virtual synthesizer is one thing......a sampler is another.

[aron]

In any case, here is how you can tell if a sound generator is sample-based:
1. Detune two waveforms of the same type: you will hear that their phases restart with each keypress, because all samples start playing back from the beginning; on a real VA the oscillator always oscillates so each keypress will make a slightly different sound
2. Hold a note, and do a pitch-bend down an octave or more: you will hear that the sound looses brightness, because the sample's frequencies are all lowered together; a real VA oscillator is always generating new harmonics

Can someone try this and put it to rest?

[thunderkyss]

In any case, here is how you can tell if a sound generator is sample-based:
1. Detune two waveforms of the same type: you will hear that their phases restart with each keypress, because all samples start playing back from the beginning; on a real VA the oscillator always oscillates so each keypress will make a slightly different sound
2. Hold a note, and do a pitch-bend down an octave or more: you will hear that the sound looses brightness, because the sample's frequencies are all lowered together; a real VA oscillator is always generating new harmonics

Can someone try this and put it to rest?

That would only work if the Jupiter used samples the way the Fantom does... which we know they don't.

SuperNATURAL is all you'll hear.

[thunderkyss]

A SweetWater Minute

We're not trying to recreate any past instruments.

Roland's philosophy is to always go forward... to look for new paths.

We developed this SuperNATURAL sound engine that allows us to emulate a lot of different synthesizer sounds and a lot of acoustic instruments, to extreme detail.

...We're not trying to creat an analog synthesizer

which you would be doing if you were to model the individual components like oscillators (which is what defined virtual analogue until recently).

...we can emulate these sounds of course, but the real key is how it deals with all of the articulations, and the behaviors of acoustic instruments and electronic instruments.

The SuperNATURAL engine is really about being able to articulate all of the nuances and all of the behavior of the instrument or the sound we're trying to actually play... same thing with synthesizers...

Instead of focusing on the front end, the input, the oscillators, the Jupiter focuses on the output.

[RonF]

I completely disagree with your characterization of what Scott says there. Of course you leave out the direct quote where he actually says the JP80 is a "Virtual Analog Synth" (5:26 in the video). Bottom line.....you are drawing some conclusions of your own from his comments.....by mixing a lot of "supernatural" aspects and quotes which may relate more to the Acoustic tones than they do to the Synth tones. I will admit, from that video anyways, there is some lack of firm clarity in Scotts comments to directly address the topic of this thread. That's simply because the the video is not trying to address this thread....its just Scott conveying an overview of the machine. You choose to glean from that what you want.......fair enough......but it confirms nothing of the sort (as you surmise) for me.

PS.....its SWEETwater, not SWEATwater, which is kinda gross :)

[thunderkyss]

I completely disagree with your characterization of what Scott says there. Of course you leave out the direct quote where he actually says the JP80 is a "Virtual Analog Synth" (5:26 in the video). Bottom line.....you are drawing some conclusions of your own from his comments.....by mixing a lot of "supernatural" aspects and quotes which may relate more to the Acoustic tones than they do to the Synth tones. I will admit, from that video anyways, there is some lack of firm clarity in Scotts comments to directly address the topic of this thread. That's simply because the the video is not trying to address this thread....its just Scott conveying an overview of the machine. You choose to glean from that what you want.......fair enough......but it confirms nothing of the sort (as you surmise) for me.

PS.....its SWEETwater, not SWEATwater, which is kinda gross :)

You are right on all counts. I am just stating my interpretation of what he is saying, & my understanding of what I know of other instruments.

You're also correct that Scott was a little cryptic about SuperNATURAL synth tones... imo, they have all been cryptic about it. On purpose.

There is a stigma about using samples as oscillators. I don't know why, but there is. Instead of judging the end result. I believe, if I am right (& I admit I have no idea, I'm just guessing), all of a sudden the Jupiter-80 won't sound so good. Which is silly.

If it sounds good, it sounds good. If the instrument inspires new ideas, what more can you ask for ?

The only reason I am as involved in this as I am, is that obviously there is a "new" definition of VA. In the past, VA meant digitally modeled VCOs... That was the main difference between a synthesizer like the Fantom & an instrument like traditional VA synths.

Then when you look at something like the V-Synth, which uses modeled oscillators, gives you 28 voice poly & has an MSRP of $3500, then you've got the Jupiter that can use patches with 27 oscillators to begin with, plus more effects than I've ever seen in a Roland synth........ I can not fathom the Jupiter being based on the same, old, technology.

That doesn't mean that I don't believe the Jupiter is a VA. Only that VA means something today it didn't 8 years ago.

[Bruce Lychee]

JP-80 VA and GAIA are completely different engines. Also, tone blender is like SUPER matrix control.

@Vince,
Seems interesting. Could we have a "taste" of what is possible to do with the Tone Blender? a few examples, maybe?

Cheers
Paulo

When I first got the Jupiter 2 months ago, I posted an example of the tone blender using the first factory patch Planet Jupiter. If you look at the description, you will see when the tone blender is used.

http://soundcloud.com/bruce-lychee/planet-jupiter

[Mystic38]

There is no "new" definition of VA.. It's simply that the JP80 is not just a VA.

Fyi comparisons to a 5yo board are totally pointless.. If I use PC as an analogy then a new PC should be about $12000 since they are about 20 times more powerful... But PCs are always the same price.. Just as top end keyboards are pretty much all $3500 no matter when you bought them.

The only reason I am as involved in this as I am, is that obviously there is a "new" definition of VA. In the past, VA meant digitally modeled VCOs... That was the main difference between a synthesizer like the Fantom & an instrument like traditional VA synths.

Then when you look at something like the V-Synth, which uses modeled oscillators, gives you 28 voice poly & has an MSRP of $3500, then you've got the Jupiter that can use patches with 27 oscillators to begin with, plus more effects than I've ever seen in a Roland synth........ I can not fathom the Jupiter being based on the same, old, technology.

That doesn't mean that I don't believe the Jupiter is a VA. Only that VA means something today it didn't 8 years ago.

[thunderkyss]

There is no "new" definition of VA.. It's simply that the JP80 is not just a VA.

Fyi comparisons to a 5yo board are totally pointless.. If I use PC as an analogy then a new PC should be about $12000 since they are about 20 times more powerful... But PCs are always the same price.. Just as top end keyboards are pretty much all $3500 no matter when you bought them.

It's the polyphony... the price of the keyboard should be the same, but the polyphony, that's the issue.

If the JP80 used the modeled oscillator technology the polyphony shouldn't be 256, or anywhere close.

VAs that model the oscillators are going to be in the 20-30 range, no where near 100, for $3500.

[Chrisk-K]

You are wrong. The Waldorf Q, a VA synth introduced in 1999, had 32 polyphony. The fact that other synth manufacturers offer 24-32 polyphony currently for $3k does not mean that it is the upper limit of current technology. Keep in mind that the JP VA section is simpler than that of other VAs including the Waldorf Q, requiring less CPU power.

[kokocalamar]

VAs that model the oscillators are going to be in the 20-30 range, no where near 100, for $3500.

Not true, look at the Kronos:

The AL-1 has 80 voices, the MS-20EX has 40, and the PolysixEX has 180.

The 61 key-version costs $2999.

[Mystic38]

Making irrelevant comparisons and arguments to imply that "because a Ford is a car, an apple is an orange" does not change the facts.

The JP80 has clearly been stated in this thread many times to include a VA section.. move along huh?

[kokocalamar]

The JP80 has clearly been stated in this thread many times to include a VA section.. move along huh?

No, I'm staying. I like it here!