If the JP80 was an ARX card how much would it be worth?

[Quinnx.]

To me the JP80 is nothing more than what could have been an ARX card and has been put inside a keybed
and pushed the price upto the 3k mark.
so if it had been released as an ARX how much would you have paid for it?

[V-CeeOh]

Roland is a money hore. It would cost 3k anyway.

[PauloF]

To me the JP80 is nothing more than what could have been an ARX card and has been put inside a keybed
and pushed the price upto the 3k mark.
so if it had been released as an ARX how much would you have paid for it?

@Quinnx
The JP-80 is not an ARX card inside a keybed....it's SEVERAL, so doing some calculations... $500.00 (each) x "A LOT OF ARX" = at least $5,000 - $10,000

Your'e joking, right?

[secret Roland agent]

Quinnx needs what I needed!

[Quinnx.]

Your'e joking, right?

why would i be joking?
arx is a seperate processing board capable of providing its own independent Fx processes
its own poly system etc..
essentially a whole synth minus the keyboard and controls

[Devnor]

A million dollars.

[mojkarma]

I think it would technically be possible to put all those sounds with the effects and the separate processor on one card.
Roland of course never thought about it. By doing that, the JP80 would become obsolete and unnecessary.
Price? Even more difficult to say. They sold the ARX at a ridiculous price point and the sales were probably so weak that they abandoned the idea. Now, one can buy the arx cheaper than the "ancient" SRX cards with samples where some of them are more than 15 years old. A lot of bad decisions here on Rolands side.

[en76]

yep! I approach this J-80 as a ARX additional to My FG and Roland definitely did the right thing on this one. Can marry it to my FG but also can live play with arx without FG and this does save me money. So J-80 is the the code and code "ARX CARD for me. Organ is descant and this save me $ from getting the VR700 :-)

can't wait to see whats the next GT and Fantom gonna look like and with how much polyphony to screw around with.

[Mystic38]

there is no way the JP80 can fit on one arx module...

but i will take ARX-piano and ARX-VA in a heartbeat.. i dont need trumpets, flutes and the other stuff.

[mojkarma]

there is no way the JP80 can fit on one arx module...

Why not?
You basically need one processor to deliver the calculating power (polyphony, effects and the scripts), and a rom chip which holds the samples. That's of course radically simplified. If we keep in mind that the Fantom G which introduced the ARX, was designed some 5 years ago, I guess that today there is an enough powerful and yet small processor which can be put on the board with the size of an arx card.
Just take a look at the size of an atom processor, which - to have a comparison - drives the Kronos and it's 9 different engines and all effects.
I don't think that the ARX technology requires a lot of processing power. At least, not nearly as much as mathematical modeled instruments because the core of the behavior modeling is actually to play the right sample at the right time, depending mainly on the use of a controller and analyzing how you play the keyboard.
I could of course be wrong in the way how I interpret the "supernatural" technology, but I still think the today there is the technology to put the whole sound and processing power on the size of an arx board.

[Mystic38]

Because if they could have, they would have.

Roland are not morons.. If they could have put the jp80 into one ARX they would have done so.... The savings in r&d costs would have been many many $M, particularly at at time when costs are a huge concern. Then, the sales and profits as pullthrough from an installed base of Fantom g, plus new Fantom g sales would have netted hugely more net profit than that from the smaller volume of jp80 sales alone..Such an ARX module would have been worth easily $1000-$1500 and we would have queued up to buy it.

[theshinenz]

Because if they could have, they would have.

Roland are not morons.. If they could have put the jp80 into one ARX they would have done so.... The savings in r&d costs would have been many many $M, particularly at at time when costs are a huge concern. Then, the sales and profits as pullthrough from an installed base of Fantom g, plus new Fantom g sales would have netted hugely more net profit than that from the smaller volume of jp80 sales alone..Such an ARX module would have been worth easily $1000-$1500 and we would have queued up to buy it.

Haha, some would beg to differ with some of their decisions/support is the last few years. :-)

[mojkarma]

Because if they could have, they would have.
Roland are not morons.. If they could have put the jp80 into one ARX they would have done so....

As a general life/behavior rule I would say: we don't always do something just because we can. Could for example Yamaha sells their Motif XF for 1000 bucks or even give you those Flash Ram chips for free? Of course they could. They wouldn't make a big profit of that marketing scheme, if any at all, but they have so many different products that they could handle even a loss on that sale by making profit on another part (is there any part on the music business which they don't cover?)

The savings in r&d costs would have been many many $M, particularly at at time when costs are a huge concern.

If we try to analyze the costs (it's just a guessing since we don't have inside information) for making the jp80, I'm almost sure that the biggest r&d costs are to create the core of the keyboard. That is the sounds. That is the part which creates the biggest expense. Every single supernatural sound source has to be painstakingly sampled and processed. The code has to be written which brings all those samples to life. That part can be done before they even decide how the final keyboard will look like. Everything else is the easier part: effects are already there. They are the same as those on the FG or other keyboards. You just borrow the code and put it on the JP80 chip.

Then, the sales and profits as pullthrough from an installed base of Fantom g, plus new Fantom g sales would have netted hugely more net profit than that from the smaller volume of jp80 sales alone..

I doubt that sales or profits would be bigger. On contrary. We don't have numbers and don't know how many FG's were sold. I'm pretty much sure that the numbers are very very far from being spectacular. They released 3 ARX cards in three years. Why didn't the released more if there was a profit? Just look at the current prices for the remaining ARX cards on the market. They are ridiculous low. That means, nobody was buying them. Not at a number that would create profit or motivate Roland to carry that scheme on. Yamaha stopped selling optional cards for the same reason since the Motif XS and I'm sure that the sale numbers for the motif always were much higher then the sale numbers for the fantom.
On the other side, a new keyboard as the JP80 creates more buzz and interests. Anybody can buy it. A complete ARX card with all those sounds would still be an option just for those who already have a Fantom G, an that brings us to your next sentence:

Such an ARX module would have been worth easily $1000-$1500 and we would have queued up to buy it.

Don't be so sure that we would buy a complete ARX for 1000-1500 bucks. That's a lot of money and you can buy for that money or even less a complete workstation like the M50 or the MoX. After spending more than 3000 bucks on a Fantom G8, would I invest even further 1500 USD for the piano, violin, trumpet, flute, shakuhachi, timpani, marimba or the flamenco guitar?
1000 bucks is the price you already paid for two arx cards. The price for a complete arx would have to be higher or the user who already bought some arx card would feel pissed of.

Creating a complete arx IMHO doesn't make sense from a marketing strategy point. It wouldn't create profit considering the input expenses. But I'm still sure that it is from a technical standpoint doable.

[Mystic38]

Lol, I didn't read past "yamaha could sell the xf at $1000" to realize it is pointless debating with you...because if you believe that it is not possible to have a sensible discuss on strategy, positioning, Pricing and ROI.

You cannot change my opinion.

Fyi, The validity of a point does not increase with the length of a post.

[mojkarma]

Mystic,
I don't write lengthy posts to increase the validity of what I say. I simply write lengthy posts. That's it.
The point of debating is not necessarily to change someones opinion. I have mine, you have yours. Have you ever seen a tv debating show where one person at the says "oh well, you convinced me, so I'm changing my opinion right now and agree with you"?
Therefor, I'm not quoting you just to express my disagreement but to have a thought were I think differently. We all simply express our opinions. They wont change anything about what Roland will do in future. It's just debating for the sake of debating.
Keep cool.
:)