I tested the Jupiter80 today. Very partial view

[ozy]

I tested the Jupiter80 today, for one good hour.

Ho-hum

I mean: HO-HUM.

It is one of the 3 best romplers I ever played.

You judge how flattering this ranking is.

First the good news:

look and build

very good! It looks better in person than on TV.

looks solid, meant-to-last, slightly passé (which I like).

the buttons are... well, everybody should build synths like that.

Keys are good Roland semis, a bit short, but with a good synth-vs-rhodes compromise. Shame on Korg for not having the semi option, kudos to roland (and Kurz) for keeping it.

No way it can be used for serious piano playing, but that was not my purpose.

the LCD is nice: clearer than kronos’; I used my fat fingers and went everywhere I needed. Won’t need a stylus.

the interface is globally less than I expected:

sliders cannot be allocated (!)

no drawbars [more about this below] ?!?

and the ABCD – 12345678 scheme of the registration buttons is limited to 4 x 8 memories.

which is crazy considering that my OB-8, almost 30 years ago, had the intelligence of memorizing not just a-1, a-2 etc but also AB-1, ABC-2 combinations, multiplying the available patch memory.

It would have required a 15 minutes software effort to get that result out of 12 so conspicuous buttons.

They are DEFINING in the machine’s look, so why not exploiting them?

This, and the lack of free allocation of sliders and buttons, is very disappointing.

pads

they are lush.

when layered (to the tune of 2x4 of them at a time) they could become HUGE.

ho-hum factor: anything that couldn’t be done by a 250-euros wavestationSR (ok, let’s layer two of them for better polyphony, let’s make that 250 euros)? No, nothing.

But lush digital it is.

electric pianos

quite nice. quite quite nice.

equal to pc3, less than kronos.

effects are way less than kronos, easier to use than pc3 (interface-wise)

Not programmable though...

hammond

fantom-ish, and NO drawbars!

the 4 sliders can’t be allocated to drawbars, and the LCD drawbars are, of course, single touch. You can only move 1 at a time.

So forget about grabbing the drawbars and “playing them while holding a chord for “instant additive synthesis”.

Now the real problem

supernatural acoustics

do you know the now famous “jupiter80 trumpet”? The one with the huge very natural glissando driven by the joystick?

The one preset which is heard in EVERY youtube demo?

well: that’s it.

Not “those”: “that”.

There is one single trumpet patch with that effect.

The rest is basic rompling (and since supernatural acoustic patches are not editable, the preset patches are all the machine can do): if you want a “fall” effect on trombones, you gotta hold a button while playing the note. If you want swell, you gotta use a joystick. If you want staccato, press another button.

Not controlled by velocity...

Duh...

What’s the point of “supernatural”, then?

The trumpet and mute trumpet are very good samples, the brass sections are almost synthy,

the saxes are romplish.

Globally, the brass wind and sax patches are flat. The good old sax which sounds good in a one-octave range, but lower than that sounds like its asthmatic brother played at half speed, and one octave upper sounds like its squealing sister.

At this point in the test my attention drifted, because my purpose was checking if the jupiter80’s articulation could be considered a valid alternative (surrogate) to the VL synths.

No way.

More to follow.

But I am 90% sure I won’t buy.

better: I am 100% sure I’ll keep the pc3 as masterkeyboard and e-piano and the VLs as brasses and winds.

Which ties up much of the the capital needed for adding a 2650 euros... what? pad-machine? Uhm...

[audioird]

hmmm 2650 € ? do you knwo where I could get it at that price please ?

[ozy]

hmmm 2650 € ? do you knwo where I could get it at that price please ?

that's the retail price I have been notified at Lucky Music, Milano, Italy.

It's the typical large professional store. No mom+pop shop, no online retailer.

So it's probably a fairly normal european price.

A roland representative was there and agreed, and they were discussing orders deliveries (15/21 days), so I think it is a quite businesslike estimate.

[V-CeeOh]

and the ABCD – 12345678 scheme of the registration buttons is limited to 4 x 8 memories.

Just a small correction there: there are actually 8 sets of 4 banks X 8 memories which brings it all up to 256 Registration ;-)

[V-CeeOh]

So it's probably a fairly normal european price.

Yes, we are targeting it for around the same price here.

[ozy]

and the ABCD – 12345678 scheme of the registration buttons is limited to 4 x 8 memories.

Just a small correction there: there are actually 8 sets of 4 banks X 8 memories which brings it all up to 256 Registration ;-)

Yep. You are right.

I checked the manual now, and the Roland demo-guy didn't read the manual (!!!) There are 8 possible sets of registrations.

I hope he didn't get anything else wrong. Or: I hope he did (that would mean the jp80 could have better features)

But I checked the sounds and the programming features myself, so...

He wasn't very convinced and convincing about the "master" features. I asked if the hammond drawbars can receive a dedicated a midi control [which would mean: add an external drawbar set or a dedicated keyboard for organs], and he said "no". Hope he was wrong on that as well.

He could play "axel foley's" bass riff almost perfectly though... ;-)

OH, on the same note, I FORGOT THIS:

I checked, and... there's a "Jump" patch among the synth brasses.

I know that's a deal-breaker for many keyboard players, so I felt compelled to mention it.

[Amazing One]

Hi ozy, thanks for the feedback and your perspective on the Jupiter-80, I look forward to testing one myself!

I do see several errors in your review and because of this you also have a number of baseless assumptions (as defined by the Jupiter-80 user guides and Roland staff members), so much so that it might cause people to wonder if you truly took the time to test a Jupiter-80. That’s not meant in any insulting way at all, but I would recommend that you, at the very least, check the facts before you post, that way people will not ignore your post believing that they are being mislead (but we all make mistakes).

It is one of the 3 best romplers I ever played.

Jupiter-80 is definitely an awesome synth, and it’s much more than just a rompler! It also has a VA synth on board and it‘s (very impressive) instruments run off Roland’s SuperNATURAL-based sound engines and use multiple behavior modeling algorithms! See the quote from Vince aka vladuca below (keyboards product manager for Roland US).

There is no "wave rom" as in what is in the Fantom-G. It's using exclusively SuperNATURAL-based sound engines with multiple behavior modeling algorithms. The 350 PCM waves mentioned are additional PCM waves along with the modeled vintage waves in the analog modeling section.

So rompler does not even come close to describing the Jupiter-80’s immense power in the area of expressive and intuitive capabilities nor it’s full potential as a synthesizer, one I would say possess technology and qualities that will soon set a new standard in it’s class for any synth with dreams of being called a beast!

Keys are good Roland semis, a bit short, but with a good synth-vs-rhodes compromise. Shame on Korg for not having the semi option, kudos to roland (and Kurz) for keeping it.

No way it can be used for serious piano playing, but that was not my purpose.

As one who has been playing keyboards and pianos for years, I strongly disagree with your quote above (concerning the piano portion). Any competent and polished keyboardist (most of the musicians that are likely to buy a Jupiter-80) will have the ability to make a semi-weighted keyboard perform as desired concerning the piano patch, I’ve been playing pianos and keyboards for years and Roland’s semi-weighted keys are of excellent quality.

This, and the lack of free allocation of sliders and buttons, is very disappointing.

It’s worth mentioning that the Jupiter-80 has a touch screen and data dial, so many adjustable parameters are handled that way not to mention it’s assignable knobs, D Beam, and it does in fact have two assignable buttons. See quote from the owners manual below, page 10.

You can also use the pitch bend and modulation lever and the assignable buttons ([S1], [S2]) to freely reproduce the richly expressive performances that are distinctive of acoustic instruments.

http://www.roland.com/products/en/_supp ... PITER%2D80

Also, I would guess that the sliders are setup to allow maximum spontaneity, so when one needs or has an impulse to select an instrument that was not part of the routine, they will instantly have sliders set to the most essential parameter (volume control over each tone), thus allowing them to improvise to their heart’s content without worrying if a slider will cause some crazy unintended effect.

It’s not a bad thing, just a matter of personal preference, for live performers like myself, it is likely setup the most preferred way.

supernatural acoustics

do you know the now famous “jupiter80 trumpet”? The one with the huge very natural glissando driven by the joystick?

The one preset which is heard in EVERY youtube demo?

well: that’s it.

Not “those”: “that”.

There is one single trumpet patch with that effect.

The rest is basic rompling (and since supernatural acoustic patches are not editable, the preset patches are all the machine can do): if you want a “fall” effect on trombones, you gotta hold a button while playing the note. If you want swell, you gotta use a joystick. If you want staccato, press another button.

Not controlled by velocity...

Duh...

What’s the point of “supernatural”, then?

This is most certainly inaccurate, and your wording is very misleading. All the acoustic instruments use Roland’s SuperNATURAL technology. There is no rompling involved regarding the acoustic SuperNATURAL instruments, they are all editable (with instrument specific parameters), various controllers are customizable, characteristic instrument techniques can be accomplished in numerous ways, there are a number of trumpet/horn sounds, all the acoustic brass instruments listed in the parameter guide can produce the glissando/fall effect with the pitch bend lever (I counted 14 all with a number of variations). And one can create their own sounds and set things up the way he or she wishes.

See parameter guide pages 25-31 (page 29 for brass)

Also, there is a point in SuperNATURAL, it’s incredible technology, I understand the point, but using an instrument more suitable to one’s specific needs is always a wise choice.

Of course, whether a sound is good or not is a matter of opinion, I’m amazed by what I hear in the sound examples, especially the most recent ones done by Scott Tibbs and the Roland U.S. team, I am sure I will be even more impressed when I play the Jupiter-80 for myself.

Thanks again ozy, not trying to sway your decision at all of course, just helping to clear up misinformation as that will not be beneficial for future Jupiter-80 owners.

[ozy]

I wrote that mine would be a "very partial review", and get the usual fanboy retort which presumes to know EVERYTHING.

I know SOME (A LITTLE) by direct experience, you know EVERYTHING by... fandom and web-browsing.

I don't think a serious forum discussion can gain ANYTHING from such snide smearing of personal but well documented reviews.

If only brochure-like enthusiastic comments are deemed correct and sincere, please tell me and I'll stop contributing.

I look forward to testing one myself!

So you didn't really test one. Not yet.

But you have the nerve of saying:

wonder if you truly took the time to test a Jupiter-80

I did. For one full hour ("full" = dont 45 minutes spent with my hands on the keys and controls), playing myself and having the official Roland demo-er helping me navigating the menus. I even posted here the name of the shop (I was the ONLY tester in Milan, btw. i.e., in the largest Italian town).

You didn't even ever see a jupiter80 in person.

But you nevertheless seized a full page of the forum for... what? Saying that I really didn't?

Is that childish or what?

Now, everything else you wrote is based on... what? Youtube and brochures?

And your judgment's credibility is based on... what?

My "several errors" being? My judgment on the quality of keys or the articulation?

Keys are short keys very similar to a70 in consistence. Perfect for acoustics, good for quick EP riffs, less good for EP solo, perfect for clavinet, good for solo synth, awful for acoustic piano.

This is not "subjective". Of course if you use a "supernatural amazing modeled piano" for disco riffs, m1-style, or for tex-mex comping, those keys will be fine. but they aren't if you need to play jazz or classic or even solo-and-voice ballads.

There is NO audible articulation on 90% of "supernatural" acoustic sounds.

If you play staccato, they don't play staccato. They play legato even if you play the keys with drumsticks. You have to engage staccato on specific notes with your left hand, computer-like.

If you play c5 on a tenor sax, it doesn't "scream", it just sounds like a stretched C4, as it happens on ANY rompler

That's basic half-90s rompling, not "supernaturalization".

How "intelligent" is a keyboard which can't even detect (using 30-years old key release messages) that I am playing staccato?!?

you say that "everything is supernatural": the fact that they CALL them "supernatural" doesn't mean they sound natural, much less "super".

Only two trumpets (main and muted) patches are really well modeled in the mono version.

The poly versions revert to flat, no-articulated.

Speaking of which:

Here's some accurate detail on key performance of the best supernatural acoustic patches:

choose the trumpet. The open, basic one. Good sample, meaty.

Play solo: nice. always legato.

play a chord: average. no articulation

play a chord on octave 3 and try soloing on octave 4: there will be audible cut-off of the chord every time the solo keys are hit while fingers are moving on the chord keys.

Which means "supernatural intelligence" can't even simulate a 5-trumpets section where 1 is soloing and 4 are comping.

This in unforgivable.

I could go on for pages.

That's something only a hands-on (and ears-open) test can evaluate.

Take the time of testing a jupiter80 (It took me 45 minutes to go to the shop, 1 hours testing, 15 minutes chatting, 45 minutes back. I took a morning off work. What did you do?),

then come back and patronize.

[V-CeeOh]

ozy
I haven't played the Jupiter myself, so yes , I'll do my comments based on the available docs, manual, videos and my own personal experience. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't think Amazing One is jumping on you about your "partial view". He expresses his thoughts based on what he knows. His thoughts ares as valuables as yours. You've been with the Jupiter for an hour still you missed the number of available registrations. Not that you are forced to know about it but this just shows that we are all different and so pay attention to what may be more important to yourself. Even when we all get our hands on the Jupiter there will be different opinions. So I would like to see you both not fighting about who knows more or less and just share your feelings.

If you play staccato, they don't play staccato. They play legato even if you play the keys with drumsticks. You have to engage staccato on specific notes with your left hand, computer-like.

I must believe that what you're saying is true. Still, not knowing how sounds have been programmed I do know that this is usually achieved with a Release Time Sens parameter on the Amp Envelope. This is common on most synth I know. There's no need for "Supersomething" technology here ;-)

[ozy]

You've been with the Jupiter for an hour still you missed the number of available registrations.

I focused on the sound quality and articulation.

Which is something no manual will describe.

I asked about the "registration" memory to a Roland demoer, and he got them wrong.

Discussion continues on a non-houseorgan forum

[PauloF]

ozy
I haven't played the Jupiter myself, so yes , I'll do my comments based on the available docs, manual, videos and my own personal experience. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't think Amazing One is jumping on you about your "partial view". He expresses his thoughts based on what he knows. His thoughts ares as valuables as yours. You've been with the Jupiter for an hour still you missed the number of available registrations. Not that you are forced to know about it but this just shows that we are all different and so pay attention to what may be more important to yourself. Even when we all get our hands on the Jupiter there will be different opinions. So I would like to see you both not fighting about who knows more or less and just share your feelings.

If you play staccato, they don't play staccato. They play legato even if you play the keys with drumsticks. You have to engage staccato on specific notes with your left hand, computer-like.

I must believe that what you're saying is true. Still, not knowing how sounds have been programmed I do know that this is usually achieved with a Release Time Sens parameter on the Amp Envelope. This is common on most synth I know. There's no need for "Supersomething" technology here ;-)

Normally I tend to believe on what is written on the documentation is true, despite form past experience we all know that the detailed information on Roland's documentation is less than desired...
but I agree with Ozy that there is nothing like getting our hands on the beast.

Now, I also agree with V-CeeOh, let's not make a war about this and express our different feelings and experiences about JU-80 in a constructive way, so we ALL learn from it!!

Cheers
Paulo

[V-CeeOh]

I focused on the sound quality and articulation.

Which is something no manual will describe.

That's what I said. I'm not criticising you. I NEVER judge an instrument quality from anything but my own ears when I'm playing it. The rest is just discussion about the specs sheet...or shit if you wich ;-)

[mojkarma]

I must believe that what you're saying is true. Still, not knowing how sounds have been programmed I do know that this is usually achieved with a Release Time Sens parameter on the Amp Envelope. This is common on most synth I know. There's no need for "Supersomething" technology here ;-)

Well there is a need for supersomething here. For the brass sounds you have staccato sample variations on the JP80 (look at some youtube demonstrations of the arx03 card). Those staccato samples are not triggered by playing staccato on the keyboard. Instead, you have to use a controller. So, what you consider as common on most synths doesn't exist on the JP80. Now, on the trumpet patch, the only thing which is controlled by the way how you play the keyboard is whether you play legato or not (it affects the attack portion of the trumpet sample). Everything else is triggered by controllers.
Personally, I agree that the JP80 sounds for the most part terrific (with the exception of the organs due to Rolands autism to realize that a hammond type sound also needs an overdrive, not just rotary), but I don't see a clear step forward in what already is/was on the market. Yamaha uses supernatural for a couple of years now. They call it superarticulation. I'm not saying that to diminish what Roland does, but if I have to use a lot of controllers, there is no clear step forward. The more controller I have to use, the less I can focus on playing music. Sitting in front of audience and demoing single patches (as Roland employees did) is one thing, playing live and usually using the left hand to play some pads or something else is another. You can't play pads with the left hand and heavily handle all those controllers.

On most other parts, I agree with ozy. Amazing one certainly has the right to express his opinion (however, to me it sounds more like advertising), but the fact is that one person tells us what he hears and how the sound behaves, while the other person explains us on the theoretical level what the sound is supposed to do.

[V-CeeOh]

So, what you consider as common on most synths doesn't exist on the JP80

Well, it exists. It may not be available for SuperNatural acoustic sounds but is for the others. I meant it would not be necessary no "supersomething" because it would be enough to implement it there and program sounds acordding to it. Also, I know the "Release time sense" parameter for most Roland digital synthesizers.

The more controller I have to use, the less I can focus on playing music

I definitely agree with that so I'll hold my comments untill I play a JP-80 myself and see how it goes.

[Devnor]

Roland never said JP80 has poly brass articulations. What it does is with the right patch a chord would sound different instruments. Will it at least do a fall? Is this useful? Who knows maybe in the band context with other instruments. As a solo 4 piece brass section its not realistic...no hardware/software is. Controllers are necessary to switch articulations. How is the synth supposed to know you're playing staccato when you haven't played the first note? Just the same with bass guitar harmonics or the muted violin effect. Mapping to velocity isn't everyone's answer.

I'm with ya on the organ..it seems very half baked. No drawbar control over MIDI (my XK3C does), 1 drawbar at a time on the display. Can the knobs be assigned to bars or groups of drawbars? Does tone blender work with organ? I can see using registrations as organ presets as a workaround but here's the kicker...no overdrive in the organ section. How many live players will need to whip out some Winwood or Jon Lord? Hello Roland?

Congrats on getting real playtime with the JP80 and thanks for your hands on review. Good to hear the buttons are nice and display easily readable. What do you mean by "short" keys? Are they physically shorter or travel less?