New Demos at Roland.US

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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby mojkarma » 18:38, 16 August 2011

Devnor wrote:This capability has been paraded around since Dan made his video. What I'd really like is to see you try to set it all up on the Motif...this massive 16 part 8 layer sound. Setup your controllers, FX everything. See ya in a hour? How much button mashing and cursoring around is enough?


Let's not forget, Dan tried to show how the registration mode is more complex than the performance mode. So, I could ask the same question from another perspective. How long will it take to create a registration with two live sets, each containing 4 tones and setting the two solo/percussion parts, which makes a total of 10 parts?
Probably longer than calling up 4 patches and setting them as desired in the Motif performance mode. So, what's actually your point? That creating 16 parts requires more time than creating 10 parts? Wow.
My intention is not to prove that a Motif is more capable than the jp80, but calling up the time argument is silly. Even if it requires one hour, after that hour you have your final result. If you don't have the required/desired part number, you'll not get your end result not even in 10 thousand hours.
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby Devnor » 19:47, 16 August 2011

Got it setup yet bueller? Ok now change your sounds with a footswitch? Oh no? Can't do? Say you want to change the right hand patch to a piano? So you enter song mode and start turning off layers and changing something to piano...cursoring about.

I press the piano button.

You could simply switch to a new song except your sounds would cut off. Where's the power in that? Assuming that you don't care if your sounds cut off how many steps are there to deep edit one of those elements? Well first you'd have to leave song mode and enter voice mode, hit edit and select the layer.

That's fine except your are now in voice mode and that massive 16 layer sound disappeared. So you make your edits outside the context of the bigger patch you're creating in song mode. Save, enter back into to song mode to hear your sounds. Maybe you need to cursor about to select the new layer you just saved?

Jupiter 80 allows me to edit both live sets and the registration simultaneously. I can hear my edits within the context of the registration I'm creating. More importantly this design allows my registrations to easily change & evolve in realtime. With 4 simple controls I can bring in layers at will. On the Motif you'll be muting multiple tracks in song mode to do the same thing. If I want to edit a tone/voice its just 3 touches away...on Motif you enter voice mode and lose the rest of your patch.

I would bet you a chicken dinner no pro musician uses song mode to control the Motif. I would bet a steak dinner the guy playing the local tavern isnt using it either. They use performance mode, the same thing Dan showed on the video. Same thing Tony Escueta showed me personally during the Yamaha XF roadshow
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby jabberwocky » 20:23, 16 August 2011

Devnor,

Devnor wrote:changing something to piano...cursoring about
Use the AS1 or AS2 button for that/

Ok , let's take motif's performance mode :
Jupiter 80 : partials = elements > 3solo + 12upper + 12lower + 3perc = 30
Motif : elements = partials > 4 parts = 8 x 4 = 32 elements

The only thing is , that Dan (Roland Product .... blabla something) is comparing this JP80 to a Motif and is spreading misleading info in his youtube video's. He shouldn't do that IMO.
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby mojkarma » 22:35, 16 August 2011

Devnor,
to be honest, I'm not happy that we have the same conversation about the same things all over different topics. I'll admit, it's my fault too, but I'm just wondering (not that I take it really personally) that some of you can't stand or even remotely accept my opinion just because I don't praise Roland or their products as the best thing that every happened to the mankind.
I don't really have a problem with those members here who like the jp80 up to the point that they try to justify absolutely every single aspect, every design decision on that keyboard, regardless how intuitive or flawed it may seem. Unfortunately, some others seems to have a religious problem with different opinions.

It's always the same problem. Somebody just wants to turn the keyboard on and play and enjoy the sounds. Some of those people refuse to understand that others are more interested on some technical aspects of the keyboard because it matters to them what they can do with the keyboard or cannot.

Whenever somebody posts a raving prise to the jp80, I'm not trying to convince him to the opposite, nor am I trying to correct him. But whenever I try to point out my caveats, my concerns with that keyboard, you or HE who's name should not be spoken aloud jumps in, telling me that my arguments are weak or that I make futile rebuttals.

With such an ingenious lack of understanding what discussion and argumentation is all about, this sub forum is going to be a place where in future three or four members will stay as the last Mohicans, competing each other who will say a bigger praise to either the company or their product.

Now to the Motif part, which you always pull out as a joker argument:
I don't have a Motif. I'm not a motif user, I don't really like the technical aspects of the Motif. I only like how it sounds. That's the reason why I don't own a motif. Because, regardless of how nice it sounds, it prevents me to do things in the way and how I like or - more important - need to do them.
But, I'm wondering how you fail to understand that your debating is going completely in the wrong direction. If we discuss about multitimbral aspects of the JP80, even comparing it to another keyboard, please, let's stay focused on that part. Don't push it over to some new elements we are not talking about. Nobody ever said that the Motif wins in every single aspect. So, why do you over and over again reach for the same new arguments which have nothing to do with what we are actually talking about?
The motif is not designed to allow seamless switching. There are some workarounds for those who absolutely need it. But, the Motif doesn't have seamless switching. On the other side: the JP80 doesn't have a sampler. So, whenever you reach for that seamless switching argument, I can recall the missing sampler or even the sequencer.
Or in other words: when I complain about the absolutely screwed up file structure on the jp80 (meaning how it saves/loads its sounds), I'm told that there is nothing wrong with the jp80 because it works as intended. So, let me use that same argument and tell you that there is absolutely nothing wrong with how you change sounds on the Motif, because it works as it's intended to work. And you can apply that "genius" argument whenever somebody complains about anything.

Let me just comment on some other statements you made:
Ok now change your sounds with a footswitch? Oh no? Can't do?


Of course you can do that. You don't even need a motif to figure it out. Just read the manual.

Say you want to change the right hand patch to a piano? So you enter song mode and start turning off layers and changing something to piano...cursoring about.


Why on earth would you turn of layers if you want to change one sound to another? No, you can't do it as fast as on the JP80. I for my part always know what I need on the stage. It never happened to me that I was on a stage with my keyboard, having a pad/trumpet split, where I said "oh, f.ck, I actually want a piano instead of the trumpet". I appreciate that possibility on the jp80, but it's nowhere near a live saver. You select preset favorite patches with that buttons below the display. You can't access any patch you may want or need. That's what every keyboarder has to do at home. Even on the Motif you could make some splits where you have different patches for the right hand and save them inside the same performance bank or group. You'll be able to select them with a single press on one of the 16 patch select buttons.

Assuming that you don't care if your sounds cut off how many steps are there to deep edit one of those elements? Well first you'd have to leave song mode and enter voice mode, hit edit and select the layer.


That's not true. You can edit patches on the motif right in the song mode and save all those edits as part of that song without using the user patch memory. You can simply transfer your songs to any other motif without overwriting any patches on that other keyboard. And by saying that, you can of course edit the patches in the multitimbral context, not outside of your bigger patch. I didn't count the steps, but you wouldn't mind I hope if it requires 2 or 3 more button presses.

With 4 simple controls I can bring in layers at will. On the Motif you'll be muting multiple tracks in song mode to do the same thing.


Multiple tracks in the song mode can be activated or muted by one single button press. All tracks with the same midi channel can be activated or deactivated with a single button press! I guess it's faster to recall some layers with a single press of a button, instead of turning a knob left or right.

I would bet you a chicken dinner no pro musician uses song mode to control the Motif.


Let me tell you, I almost hate when the term "pro musician" is used as an argument for something. What is a pro musician? Imagine a band where the keyboarder uses backing tracks for every single song! Regardless of the keyboard type, this keyboarder have to use the song mode. So, what's wrong in using the song mode and its advances instead of the performance mode? It's called song mode, not non-pro-song mode. You are free to use any mode in anyway you may like. Nothing in that regard will make you pro or non pro.

I would bet a steak dinner the guy playing the local tavern isnt using it either.


And what is your point? What's the logical conclusion here? The local tavern musician is a professional because he doesn't use the song mode! Or, songs which are played in local taverns are so easy on the keyboard side, that they never need more than 4 parts which are available on the motif performance mode.

They use performance mode, the same thing Dan showed on the video.


Unlike you, I'll never make statements what other people use or don't use. I know people who are "pro musicians", playing in "pro bands" and who are exclusively using the song mode for their multitimbral setups. I also know "pro musicians" who exclusively use the patch mode and don't use any single multitimbral setup, neither the performance mode nor the song mode.

Be careful on betting dinners and assuming how other people use their keyboards. I even know a Fantom X user who exclusively uses the song mode for his multitimbral setups, and don't forget, the Fan X has 16 parts in its performance mode! It has something to do with the way how he can select sounds in the song mode and he can't do the same in the Fan X performance mode.
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby Devnor » 22:58, 16 August 2011

jabberwocky wrote:Ok , let's take motif's performance mode :
Jupiter 80 : partials = elements > 3solo + 12upper + 12lower + 3perc = 30
Motif : elements = partials > 4 parts = 8 x 4 = 32 elements

The only thing is , that Dan (Roland Product .... blabla something) is comparing this JP80 to a Motif and is spreading misleading info in his youtube video's. He shouldn't do that IMO.


Except you are comparing 32 PCM elements to a mix of supernatural acoustic, VA synth and PCM sounds. You are also leaving out on the Motif you can only switch seamlessly between the four sounds and you've left out the only way to switch between the 4 seamlessly is via the front panel. No foot switch. Steak dinner anyone?

Personally I love the Motif XF for what it does and if I had the money, I'd own a XF8 right now. Maybe the confusion stems from Dan's statement after demoing the Nord where he says the Jupiter is clearly more powerful? When you look at the whole enchilada, the Jupiter is clearly more powerful than those 2.
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby Devnor » 23:20, 16 August 2011

Honestly mojokarma I'm tired of debating a keyboard that you'd otherwise have no interest in. If you personally feel operating in song mode has advantages over the jupiter registration mode, then please let me know something beyond layering 32 samples on a key.

Its 2011 and seamless switching of sounds is required for a $3500 keyboard.
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby mojkarma » 02:46, 17 August 2011

Devnor wrote:Honestly mojokarma I'm tired of debating a keyboard that you'd otherwise have no interest in.


No, that's not true. I had an interest on the jp80 and thought about it as a potential purchase, since I use my Fantom G exclusively as a live performing keyboard. But the lack of sample playback functionality makes it unusable for my needs. And contrary to your impression, my intention was not to prove that the Motif has more elements or partials, I simply wanted to point out that Dans comparison with the Motif (or in fact any other keyboard) was completely unnecessary. The registration is the highest working level on the JP80. The Performance Mode is not the highest working level on the Motif. You may wonder why anybody even takes the song mode into consideration when it comes to creating complex multitimbral setups, but here I can't speak for Yamaha. On the other side, I do also wonder why Roland calls a part as a "percussion" part while it actually can take any other sound except for the organ tone. There are still quite a lot of people not understanding how many possible parts there actually are on the jp80. Instead of giving here clear answers to those who may be interested in the product, Dan compares it unnecessarily to the Motif and talks about 4 live sets and about saving patches.

Devnor wrote:Its 2011 and seamless switching of sounds is required for a $3500 keyboard.


Yes, I agree with you here.
But tell me, which part of the data handling on the JP80 belongs to 2011? A simple whole backup/restore without even the possibility to give it a name? On a $3500 keyboard? After all those complains from Fantom S/X/G users about the file transferring system all the years? So many possibilities on the synth type sounds and you'll never be able to share, buy, sell your own?
How do the effects belong to 2011? One single insert per tone or the hardwired combination for the percussion/solo parts. One single aux effect? That's even below the GM standard chorus/reverb combo. If they managed to deliver three effects for the percussion/solo part, why can't the user decide which three effects he wants for his solo part? Does it matter to the processor whether it calculates those three hardwired effects or any other three which require a comparable processing power?
You see why I don't like those general comparisons, especially not that one coming from Dan in his video. It's absolutely pointless because each person will consider different things as more or less important.
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby Grammar Wombat » 03:16, 17 August 2011

mojkarma wrote:…each person will consider different things as more or less important.

Yes, a more important concern for me is Mystic38's "MARSUPIAL trap."
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby jabberwocky » 08:56, 17 August 2011

Devnor wrote:When you look at the whole enchilada, the Jupiter is clearly more powerful than those 2.


You are weird ! ,it has no sampling / no sequencer / Super natural : Don't call this Organ supernatural when you can only move 1 drawbar at the time ? , also ARX03 (brass) is a total fail imo. I'm not in the market for timpani rolls.

Anyhow, I had this question if there are "4 livesets" or "2 livesets+2tones" possible in a single registration ? I believe it's important in the way you can split up your livesets over the keyboard playing live gigs
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby V-CeeOh » 11:08, 17 August 2011

Anyhow, I had this question if there are "4 livesets" or "2 livesets+2tones" possible in a single registration ?

I already answered you this.
A Registration consists of four Parts: Solo, Upper, Lower, and Percussion. Upper and Lower use 4-tone Live Sets. Solo and Percussion are 1 Tone only.
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby jabberwocky » 11:59, 18 August 2011

Ha, sorry missed that. So these Video's on Dan's youtube are totally customer misleading !

This leaves us with 4 zones to divide over the keyboard :
- 2 zones can consist of 4 tones (12 partials for each zone)
- the other 2 zones can only consist of 1 tone (3 partials for each zone)
mmm, that's somekind of limitted.

1) So yes, this requires seamless switching then ;
BUT is the switching as poor as in the Fantom G ? In example you hold your notes in Registration 1 , keep holding these notes , make a switch to Registration 2 and back to Registration 1 (or Registration 3) the notes you were holding in the first place are cutoff due to hardware limitations ?

2) Also, I don't see any possibility to put the filter's in serie (i.e. Tone Structure as in Fantom X ..,) . Roland should have put the Vsynths dualband filter's in this Jupiter 80 :-((


Thanks for clearing up these things !!
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby mojkarma » 21:24, 18 August 2011

jabberwocky wrote:This leaves us with 4 zones to divide over the keyboard :
- 2 zones can consist of 4 tones (12 partials for each zone)
- the other 2 zones can only consist of 1 tone (3 partials for each zone)
mmm, that's somekind of limitted.


I wouldn't say that it's limited. You have ten parts for your splits/layers. That should in most cases be more than enough. It also doesn't really matter whether it is one tone or 4 tones as a live set. One tone is actually a complete patch.
But yes, I also don't consider it the best solution, having 4 parts as a registration and additional 4 parts on a sub level , namely the live sets.


jabberwocky wrote:1) So yes, this requires seamless switching then ;
BUT is the switching as poor as in the Fantom G ? In example you hold your notes in Registration 1 , keep holding these notes , make a switch to Registration 2 and back to Registration 1 (or Registration 3) the notes you were holding in the first place are cutoff due to hardware limitations ?


Seamless switching as it is on the FG is by no means poor and the same is true for the jp80. It's a very practical thing to go from one setup to another one. Maybe my fantasy is lacking, but I can't imagine a situation where somebody would need to switch over three setups while holding the same key and sound from the first one.
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby jabberwocky » 08:19, 19 August 2011

mojkarma wrote:I wouldn't say that it's limited. You have ten parts for your splits/layers
.

Hi , I did'nt ment the number of parts but the number of actual splits , and that the upper and lower parts are seperated in this keyboard split sence (in the liveset you can only switchon / off layers , no keyboard range ?)

mojkarma wrote:but I can't imagine a situation where somebody would need to switch over three setups
... Well, I had to program some RPS phrases on my Fantom G to accomplish this. (holding a chord left hand , while switching between sax types in the right hand for example)
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby mojkarma » 12:06, 19 August 2011

1
The parts inside of a live set can be split. So it means that you have possible 10 key zones with different sounds.

2
Regarding the different sax types, I would for example create 4 different registrations for 4 different sax types (soprano, alt, tenor, baritone). Each registration would be a split. Chord sound on the left part, sax sound on the right. The question is, don't you change the chords at all during the performance with those different sax types? Even if that's the case, once after changing from one to another registration, I would simply retrigger the same chord. It shouldn't be really audible, especially if the sound has a slight release tail or if you hold it with the sustain pedal and rettriger while holding with the sustain pedal the already sounding chord. Once you rettriger the chord and release the sustain pedal, you are actually activating the chord sound from the new registration (which can be the same sound as used on the previous registration), but this time you are able to switch registrations further without an interrupt.
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Re: New Demos at Roland.US

Postby Mystic38 » 12:11, 19 August 2011

Jabberwocky..Remember that the Fantom G has no button or function label called split and it does fine :)

So first forget about splits and then think like the live set on the FG and you will see that there are 10 patches that can be layered/split across the board using keyboard ranges on the JP80.

and then in addition you can press the split button. which is simply a way to override the keyboard range settings in the live set.


jabberwocky wrote:
mojkarma wrote:I wouldn't say that it's limited. You have ten parts for your splits/layers
.

Hi , I did'nt ment the number of parts but the number of actual splits , and that the upper and lower parts are seperated in this keyboard split sence (in the liveset you can only switchon / off layers , no keyboard range ?)

mojkarma wrote:but I can't imagine a situation where somebody would need to switch over three setups
... Well, I had to program some RPS phrases on my Fantom G to accomplish this. (holding a chord left hand , while switching between sax types in the right hand for example)
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