No Kevin, you don't deserve any mercy for your irrational post. You were just intelligent enough, to state your outburst in a diplomatic and clear language, but you deserve no other treatment than any other Gearslutz ignorant. But nevertheless, because it's you, I will try a more therapeutical approach instead...
Why did you have the urge to publicly post this nonsense? It's because you obviously didn't find the time in your one year of ownership to use and learn your JP-80. Now you're acting like a child, who cries from frustration, because he still doesn't undestand his new toy. The subconscious often directs our behavior and like it's also observable with childs, your destructive cry of frustration, is in fact a hidden cry for help.
So I will try to help you!
knolan wrote:I own a lot of synths and have never sold one before - I own every synth I ever bought. But I am contemplating selling the JP80.
But I have to say, I do not get the JP80. I've owned it nearly a year; and I find it outrageously complicated - I can't get my head around it.
With this introduction to your irrational tirade, you are nothing but stressing your self-importance and the inner drama you have to go through with your feelings towards the JP-80, as the JP-80 seems in fact to be more important to you than any other synth you've ever bought, even so important that you are contemplating of selling it, as the only synth you'll ever sell away, punishing the JP-80, but in fact punishing yourself in a self-destructive manner, caused by anger about yourself, because you're still not understanding the JP-80.
knolan wrote:I rarely criticize hardware synths and broadly admire what Roland are doing these days and have been until recently hugely into the concept of the JP80; but the JP80 is just too frustrating and I just can't use it and can't see it integrating into my system.
Now, we just have to translate your above sentence into its real meaning:
Translation:
"I rarely criticize hardware snyths I own and broadly admire what Roland are doing these days and have been until recently hugely into the concept of the JP-80, but it is too frustrating for me, that I've never took the time in nearly one year, to really grasp and learn the concept of the JP-80 and therefore I am just not able to use it and cannot see it integrating it into my "system"."
knolan wrote:Among the issues are:
I hate the Registration-Liveset-Tone architecture. It is overbearingly complicated and I can never, ever see myself getting into that when all I want is Tones. I need a Tone play mode!
You are crying for a Tone play mode in your dazzled state, completely losing sight of the fact that the JP-80 already delivers your demand even twice!!! The Perc Part and the Solo Part offer nothing else than Tone play mode, both offering access to ALL available single SN synth and acoustic Tones. You can mangle the Perc and Solo Part Tones on the Registration level.
But also the Livsets are offering Tone play mode, if you just simply don't use, resp. switch off the other three available Tones of a Liveset.
knolan wrote:- The Operating System is ridiculously complicated by comparison to the V-SynthGT, for example. On the V-Synth it's like Russian Dolls - clear and obvious levels within levels - nothing hidden and everything in its logical place. With the JP, there are pages and layers and levels all over the place. Functionality that should happen once is duplicated on multiple levels. Ridiculous.
It's really not hard to learn. The JP-80 has ONLY TWO layered levels: Registration level and Liveset level. So it is a very simple Russian Doll, even too simple for a child...The only thing you have to grasp is the fact that a single Tone is either available on the Liveset level with the dedicated effects of the Liveset level, or available on the Registration level as a single Tone of the Perc or Solo Part with the dedicated effects of the Registration level.
Now, if you are in SN synth edit mode you are entering a kind of third level and as a single SN synth Tone has up to three Partials, the faders and buttons will again change their functions correspondingly (shift + buttons = Partial edit select).
What you are calling ridicoulus duplications of functionalities on multiple levels, due to your lack of understanding, has in fact many useful and practical reasons and make absolut sense.
Registration edit level: Offers quick access to Level, Pan and Octave for perc Part, lower Liveset, upper Liveset and Solo Part, WITHOUT affecting the orignal Liveset or Tone parameters.
In the Registration edit Common tab, you can define (among others) the function of the four controller knobs and the switch assign 1/2 for the two switch buttons. You can choose to assignments among many cc number and offset parameters or the Tone Blender.
You also adjust the single Tones of the Perc and Solo parts and their effects on the Registration level. You have many offset parameters available to adjust the Perc and Solo Part, which is important, because you cannot fully edit them, as it's possible on the Liveset level. But this has also the advantage that you don't change the original parameters of your SN synth or acoustic single Tones used in the Perc and Solo part, if you mangle them.
Liveset edit level: Here you edit of course also the dedicated effects for up to four single Tones of a Liveset.
What's confusing to you is the seemingly duplication of some parameters in the Liveset Layer and Modify tabs.
For SN acoustic Tones: The Modify tab offers some modifications and variations of the SN acoustic Tones, depending on the corresponding acoustic instrument models. Those modifications and variations are assignable to the four mod knobs, the two switches 1/2 and the D-Beam. But of course, you cannot edit the SN acoustic Tones. To mangle them, you have to change to the Layer tab. Here you can finally edit the Freq, Res, Attck, Decay, Release, Vibrato, Key range, Velocity range, Pitch, etc...of the up to four SN acoustic Tones of the Liveset.
For SN synth Tones: In contrast to the SN acoustic Tones, you finally don't really need the Layer tab for adjustments, apart from Velocity and Key range, etc. The Modify tab for SN synth Tones already offers access to edit many important synth parameters on the Liveset level, WITHOUT affecting the original parameters of the SN synth Tone. Here you will also find the unique Time Intervall Env Sensitivity parameter and the important Env Loop function.
Does it hurt, that some of the SN synth Tone parameters in the Modify tab are also available in the Layer Tab (like e.g. Filter Cutoff)? No, because you can make some quick adjustments in the Layer tab, with the overview of all parameters for all four Liveset layers (acoustic or synth tones) at a time.
So in order to mangle SN acoustic Tones you will use the Layer tab and in order to mangle SN Synth Tones (without affecting the original synth Tone parameters) you will use the Modify tab instead.
The SN synth Tone edit level, gives full edit access to all three SN synth Tone partials, which is accessible from the Liveset Modify tab or directly by pressing Shift + the colored buttons.
knolan wrote:I find not one of the factory Registraitons or Live sets useful. Honestly - not one. They are all overbearingly cliched and just not useful in original compositions. I'd have to revoice this thing from scratch to make it useful to my purposes., and that's not going to happen as I don't have the time or inclination.
The number of free registration, liveset and tone slots is ridiculously low.
Now, then just delete those factory Tones, Livesets and Registrations, (as I constantly do) as you don't like them anyway! It's so easy and fast (and extremely rewarding) to program your own sounds on the JP-80!
It is in fact THE ONLY way to really discover the true sound character and the real possibilities and power of this unique and outstanding synthesizer. And as it is called a synthesizer and not a workstation, it is really meant to be programmed by the musician, like in the old analog days!
knolan wrote:The back up capability - one backup per USB-Sitck is frankly a joke. But this is the same with the GAIA which I also own. So how does one save and backup and manage individual tones, livesets and registrations?
Apart from the backup function, you can also import and export desired Registrations, Livesets and Tones. You can also move and exchange Registrations.
knolan wrote:The iPad app is basically useless - I can't get to the Tone level to edit it in any meaningful way because Tones can't be played. So - I'll never end up editing the thing (the reason I bought it!)
The very fast and responsive touch screen (without the lag of the V-Synth touch screen) of the JP-80 itself is completely sufficiant. The iPad makes only sense for the JP-50. To buy an iPad just for the JP-80 was not a wise decision on your part. You cannot blame Roland for offering this free software option released at the same time as the JP-50.
knolan wrote:Franky, Supernatural just doesn't sound that good. By comparison to my Yamaha VL1, it just does not match up. The Violin sounds superficially good, but when you push it, it just does not sound realistic. The same goes for many of the Supernatural tones. They are quite good - better than even good modern romplers like Kronos, but a far cry from the capabilities of VL technology.
How do you define "good sounding" for heaven's sake?!
First of all, I strongly recommend to mangle those SN acoustic Tones as much as you can. Remember those SN acoustic Tones are nothing else than synth sounds, produced by a dedicated synth engine. They sound unique and are extremely responsive and musical to play. I don't mind if they simulate the real acoustic instrument or not. The SN grand piano for instance connects with the player and is like an unreal or surreal, but perfect and most beautiful, most expressive, most responsive, most playable and useful version of the perfect grand piano, which will never exist in the real world. It's the same case with all the other SN acoustic sounds.
Use dedicated GB samples based software or physical modeling based hard- or software solutions for close simulations of the real instrument, but you will never get the unique connection to the player, the responsiveness, the expressiveness, the unreal beauty, the unique sound character and outstanding playability of those SN acoustic Tones.
BTW: How many voices does your VL1 have again? Two notes maximum ?
knolan wrote:There's no real time control worth speaking of. All of those coloured, VERY expensive buttons are pointless. I just don't get the user interface of this thing. I have never seen so many pointless knobs, faders and buttons on a synth that basically do nothing (by comparison to what they should be able to do).
The four faders and buttons change their functionality corresponding, if you are on the Registration, Liveset or Tone edit level.
The JP-80's touch-screen is very fast and responsive (doesn't lag like the V-Synths' touch screen) and can serve very well to change parameters in real time.
But the four assignable controller knobs, the switch buttons 1/2 , the D-Beam plus the mod lever and aftertouch offer much more than one would think. If have to agree that the two Rotary Sound buttons should be assignable to other effect parameters as well. This is about the only point I can agree with you.
As you can freely assign many cc numbers and offset parameters or the Tone Blender to the four controller knobs for the lower and/or upper Livesets, you have a lot of controller options per Liveset in a Registration. Especially the Tone Blender is a unique and very effective way to change your Livesets drastically. You can e.g. increase the distortion effect part of one Tone and at the same time fade in another Tone, while dcreasing the Filter Cutoff of a third Tone, etc....
Most people also forget that it is possible to assign many of the effect parameters of a Liveset to all cc numbers, aftertouch, pitch bend, tone modify, tone variation, any offset parameters AND to the Tone Blender.
This gives you many options, like e.g. adding a wah wah effect, when you change the variation of a SN acoustic Tone with the switches 1/2 (e.g. slap bass variation with wahwah) or whatever else, like increasing the delay feedback and balance of a Tone via aftertouch, etc, etc.
As more you learn, as more possibilities and creative options you will discover. But YOU have to discover this instrument and YOU have to create and combine your OWN sounds.
You can assign your own LiveSets and Tones in the System Menu to those nice colored buttons. The assignment which you save with a Registration, will remain rgeardless of your assignments in the System Menu. Every colored button offers also a freely assignable alternate Liveset or Tone.
So a Registration is therefore more a frame that you create for a whole palette of your own desired Tones and Livesets. And as a Liveset can be many different things like a split or a layer or a collection of several variations of single Tones, you have indeed a vast sound palette with your individual favorite Tones and Livesets immediately accessible and ready to combine, match and mix... and on top of this you have the vast possibilities of the Tone Blender and the real-time effect parameter controls.... add the Perc or Solo Part, switch a Liveset or just change one of its Tones, apply the Tone Blender to increase the attack time and reverb amount of one or several Liveset Tones, while another Tone gets some wahwah effect and more filter resonance at the same time...etc...
The JP-80 is therefore a dream for the improvising musician, beeing extremely accessible and offering immediate access to many of your desired sounds and effects. But it's just as easy to access any other sound if you just press the nice colored buttons twice...
So the user interface is very clever, accessible and useful, offering much more flexibility and possibilities than one would think in the first place.
knolan wrote:And for me, the JP80 pad sounds are a pale shadow of the capabilities of my JD800 (a pinnacle of pad sounds), while the V-Synth GT VA and AS capabilities coupled to it's superlative OS and Interface are simply on a different plain to the JP80 - there's just no comparison.
I just simply fully deny your above statement, which is without any serious fundament. I was even able to emulate some of the incredible string pads of Omnsipshere with the JP-80 and I've owned a JD-800 for many years and know exactly all the basic JD-800 PCM waveforms by heart. You will find a lot of the original JD-800 PCM waveforms (and also D-50) in the JP-80's SN synth oscillator PCM section!!! You have to PROGRAM your own sounds on this JP-80 thing! Again, that's why it's called a synthesizer and not a workstation!
knolan wrote:Overall, I applaud Roland for the idea - I bought into the JP80 concept lock-stock-and -barrel from the outset and perhaps the Integra-7 will suit my purposes better - but I have slowly had to admit to myself that I actually hate the JP80 - it is about the most frustrating and over-rates sounding synth I have ever come across, bar none. It feels good to say it! Its like a release (having paid a fortune for the thing its not easy to admit you've made a major mistake!).
Perhaps I won't sell it because I truly struggle to sell an instrument once I've invested some time in it; but the JP80 has turned out to be the biggest disappointment of an instrument I have ever come across and will simply not feature in my compositions.
Again, read my points at the beginning of this post. You are saying, that you actually hate the JP-80, but again, you are just projecting the hate about yourself on the poor and innocent JP-80, because you still didn't do your homework with this synth. But if you prefer prefabricated presets, ready for cheap and fast production, without losing any time, then maybe something like a Yamaha Tyros would surely better serve your needs or just any software library.
knolan wrote:I realise there are many here who love it; and I am not a Roland basher and applaud their whole approach to COSM, Supernatural and so on; but in this instance I feel they have over engineered it out of practical use in new, original compositions and performances; and if there is one major issue with Roland is that they seem never to recognise when they have made such mistakes and try to rectify it.
Lets' translate your statement again, to get to the real meaning:
Translation:
"I realise there are many here who grasp it; and I am not a Roland basher (which is of course just what I did some sentences before) and applaud their whole approach to COSM, Supernatural and so on; but in this instance I feel they have overstrained my learning and creative capabilities and it's therefore out of practical use for me in new, original compositions and performances, (but it could possibly serve for old and mundane compositions and performances); and if there is one major issue with myelf is that I seem never to recognise when I have made such mistakes, like not learning the JP-80 and try to rectify it."
knolan wrote:At a minimum, I would need a major OS reworking to be able ot use this thing meaningfully, most especially on the Tone level, but I suspect that will never happen.
Translation:
"At a minimum, I would need a major brainstorming to be able to undesrstand and use this thing meaningfully, most especially on the Tone level, but I suspect that will never happen."
Don't give up Kevin! ... and please take my pseudo psycho-analytical approach with the necessary grain of salt ;)