Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

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kimsnarf
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Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by kimsnarf »

The app is "blank" when you launch it, until you open a file. And you do not need to have the synth connected. So far the app only processes files from the filesystem on your Mac.

However, the unexpected quits are strange. I have downloaded the app from the same link and have tested it on many SVD files. Have you tried the official SVD files from Roland also? If not, could you send me a file that does not open?

When the app crashes, do you get a crash log? If so, it would be useful if you copied this information to me.
This log usually hides behind the "Show details" button in the crash dialog.
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flyingace
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Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by flyingace »

So sorry, Kimsnarf, I'm usually better at providing more information when having a problem. I'll get those logs for you and take some screen shots along with sending you the SVD that crashes it.

I was able to open the roland provided (AXIAL) SVD files just fine. Now that I understand that this is just a tool to see the live sets and tones attached to each registration and not a USB librarian that will allow us to organize a set and upload to the JP80.

Question based on that last comment: Is that were, eventually, you see this librarian going with the ability to connect to the JP80/50 and upload sounds?

Thanks for all the hard work you've put into something that Roland is obviously not interested in doing to help those of us that own their flagship keyboard!
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kimsnarf
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Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by kimsnarf »

I'm glad that others can benefit from this work. It would be kind of sad to develop something like this just for myself. :)

The short-term idea is to provide a file tool to view, organize and mix sounds from SVD files. This would enable a much more convenient way to build useful sound sets without worrying about breaking or losing sounds. The modified files can then be imported back to the synth using a USB stick.

On a longer term the tool could potentially connect to the Jupiters to preview any sound from an opened SVD file. However, the sound has to be saved manually on the synth. There appears to be no way to upload a sound to a given bank/slot. And still, previewing a sound requires translating a massive amount of parameters from the SVD format to the MIDI format. The formats are similar in structure, but not identical, so this could end up becoming a major undertaking. Due to the amount of work, and since the sounds can only be previewed, this is far down on my priority list. After all, the Jupiters are great for trying out sounds but hopeless for organizing them.
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kimsnarf
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Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by kimsnarf »

Some small progress as I'm finding bits of time to learn to program for the OS X user interface.

It is now possible to search for names of registrations, live sets, tones and partials in the sound lists. This makes it easier to jump quickly to the desired sound (and check out its dependencies). Matching sounds are also selected, although at present there are no actions to perform on the selections. I have also added sorting of the name/order columns, including the dependencies.

The updated version is available at the same link:
Jupiter-80 Librarian

I'm finding this version useful for verifying dependencies before deleting sounds on the synth. The idea is to start adding actions to selected items for e.g. deleting sound (including dependencies).
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kimsnarf
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Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by kimsnarf »

Another minor update (same link). I have added a control for showing only live sets used (or unused) by registrations. Similarly for tones used (or unused) by registrations or live sets. This is useful for identifying e.g. sounds to safely delete or sounds having dependencies.
CShorte
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Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by CShorte »

Thank you, as a new owner of the JP80, this is a great resource. I am looking at adding some of the JP80 Re-fills and this will help me identify duplications at some level. Yet, it is too new for me to go adding or deleting. In the interim, I have only made a backup of the initial soundsets as delivered with v2.11, again thanks, CS.
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kimsnarf
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Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by kimsnarf »

I hope you find it useful!

There have been many requests for a full-featured librarian, but it will require much work. And apparently I'm the only one interested in and able to work on this. Also, it appears most potential users here are on Windows. I'm on OS X. So for the tool to be useful to the majority I would have to put in a lot of extra effort to support a platform I don't use and have no interest in. Finally, I don't have a lot of free time, and I want to spend most of it playing/composing, not coding. So the project kind of died.

I did create a cross-platform tool (as a Renoise plug-in) to build lists of sounds and dependencies (exported as text). Hopefully, this will cover the basics for Windows and Linux users. Probably the lists will need to be imported into some other tool (like a spreadsheet) to be truly useful.

I've also created a GUI tool for Mac (the one you downloaded) with more built-in features. I have continued to refine this (not released yet) and plan to release a "final" version with more polish eventually. The idea is for this tool to be adequate by itself.
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kimsnarf
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Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by kimsnarf »

My main intent for a librarian was to build my own sound set from included presets and from Axial. Until I had an overview of the dependencies, I didn't dare attempt this. However, with the dependencies (from my tool) I attempted this by importing/deleting/moving on the synth itself. The workflow turned out to be just fine. I have built my own sound set now that I am really happy with. I have organized the registrations differently and have included lots from Axial. I have also deleted a couple of included presets that I did not find useful.

Through this effort I learned that I don't really need a full-featured librarian after all. The main hurdle was keeping track of dependencies. As a bonus I would like to be able to delete sounds in the tool. This is the task I find most time consuming on the synth, but it's doable on the synth (one by one), so I don't know if I will complete this feature.
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kimsnarf
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Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by kimsnarf »

For those interested, here is how I built my own sound set:

First, I freed up a couple of included presets that I didn't like (using the dependency list). Then I moved registrations around to better organize them by type of sound (making it easier to find related sounds together). This also freed up some slots in each registration set.

Then I imported the first Axial sound set to an empty area. I found out which sounds I liked, and then moved those registrations to the slots I had left empty in my registration sets. All Axial sounds use existing live sets and tones, so for each registration I searched up the built-in sound with the same name and mapped it to that instead. Thus the sound no longer depends on any imported sounds. (In a few cases, the Axial live set or tone was slightly modified, so I added it if I preferred the modified sound).

When done I imported the next Axial sound set, overwriting the previous one, and repeated the procedure.

Finally, I had to go through each tone, live set and registration and delete the Axial ones. Done!
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kimsnarf
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Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by kimsnarf »

After some years of enjoying and exploring the Jupiter-80, I now feel I know its "sound". Rather than aquiring additional patches, I'm more interested in building my own. Also, I keep removing/modifying included ones as I tailor the Jupiter to its strengths. I don't need weak patches to cover a broader range when my other synths do a better job in those areas. For instance, I've removed many included attempts at "vintage" sounds. To me, the Jupiter-80 instead excels at pads and acoustic sounds, with some power-synth in between. Modern sounds, not vintage.

I think the Jupiter-80 needs layers and effects to sound great. The basic tones (partials) are mostly OK, but after hearing analog (and newer modelling like Analog Circuit Behaviour) there just is no comparison. But then again, these technologies can't handle 256 simultaneous voices. So on the Jupiter I'm mostly working on the live set level and up to get the sounds I want. At the tone level I prefer my other synths (but then again, they mostly don't go beyond the tone level). As I've said many times before, the Jupiter-80 is fabulous for layering sounds.
Dewdman42
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Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by Dewdman42 »

The best thing to do is to pass along whatever intellectual knowledge you have figured out kimsnarf and hope that in the future one or more other smart people will find time to carry the torch a little further. Perhaps someday a librarian will result. I also have not had time to pursue anything, and though I did create a github project to try to get people to contribute knowledge of the SVD file format, nobody else did so far. Most likely I am going to get rid of my JP-80, and move on to other things...so...I doubt I will find any time to work further on it, but I will keep the github thing alive in case anyone wants to further the development of reference documentation which can help future folks that want to work on this kind of thing.
moogmaniac
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Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by moogmaniac »

There is still plenty of interest in this, unfortunately I am not a programmer or I would help with the work.
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cello
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Re: Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

Post by cello »

Whilst we all know how useful a librarian would be, you can download a 'blank'.svd from my website at www.jp-80.com. This is useful in that it gives you a JP-80 with no sounds; nothing at all (make sure you back up before importing it!). This then allows you to import an Axial file for example, decide which ones you like, export them and then reinstate your jp-80, and then import the sounds you selected.

This process of course does not prevent multiple instances of tones/livesets which of course is at the root of why a librarian is so desirable.
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