Reading Jupiter-80 sound sets on a PC/Mac

[cello]

Hi Kimsnarf - I totally appreciate your efforts however cannot give any useful feedback because when I first tried Renoise it demanded that my Jp-80 was connected to the computer.

My studio doesn't work like that - no computers involved. So it would be a huge effort just to change things so that I could test it (and would break my studio to do so).

Hence why no comment from me until now! I think your approach is spot on; perfect. Read the svd and look at the dependencies - this is how the V-Synth GT editor works - and it works well (it also has the added complication of samples relationships as well as patches).

Everything you are doing is right - I just can't try it out. If you are going to go the standalone app route, please make it independent from the keyboard. What I mean is simply open up the svd (like the V-synth librarian) work with it, save it, put it on a USB and then import/restore from it.

Thank you so much for working on this - I have money waiting to pay for such an editor. I'd pay $100 for it. Let me know if there's ANYTHING I can do to help; testing, etc. But the Renoise approach for me kills it simply because of the dependency of instrument attachment to computer.

[kimsnarf]

Hi Kimsnarf - I totally appreciate your efforts however cannot give any useful feedback because when I first tried Renoise it demanded that my Jp-80 was connected to the computer.

You don't need the synth connected for the SVD menu options! Only for the MIDI menu options, but these are basically legacy now. All the new features are based on the SVD files. (See the screen shot in my previous post).

If this is what has been holding you back, please try again. :)

If you are going to go the standalone app route, please make it independent from the keyboard. What I mean is simply open up the svd (like the V-synth librarian) work with it, save it, put it on a USB and then import/restore from it.

This is exactly the way it works now! (Except for it not being standalone.)

I think your approach is spot on; perfect. Read the svd and look at the dependencies - this is how the V-Synth GT editor works - and it works well (it also has the added complication of samples relationships as well as patches).

Great! This is useful information. :)

[cello]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Will try it again and get back to you.

In the meantime, would it be useful if I email you the V-Synth Librarian along with a V-synth file so you can explore what it does?

If so, PM me your email address and I'll send them :)

[Jambo]

I followed the directions you gave: Downloaded Renoise and your jupiter80librarian file. Double clicked the librarian file but couldn't get it to show up in the "tools" menu. I tried restarting Renoise... but nothing seemed to work at this point. Of course it is 2 A.M. and it may just fatigue setting in... time to get some sleep and try again with fresh eyes in the morning.

[kimsnarf]

I was in a hurry and made a mistake when I created the xrnx-file. I have uploaded a version that now installs correctly. Sorry about that!

Please try again:
Jupiter-80 Librarian

[Jambo]

Kimsnarf - Just a quick note to let you know that I got it working. Obviously I need to spend some time digging through the information before I decide exactly how I'm going to put it to use as well as assess and suggest but I did want to let you know that I got it working. YAY!!!

At first glance I can see an enormous use for the easy registration swapping/reordering. Knowing what tones aren't being used in live sets as well as what live sets aren't being used in registrations is obviously HUGE! No, it's not a full fledged librarian but it's an enormous step in the right direction.

After all of the interest in your project I have a hard time believing that I'm the first to actually check it out. Everybody on this sight has had their JP80 longer than I. Come on people!

[kimsnarf]

At first glance I can see an enormous use for the easy registration swapping/reordering. Knowing what tones aren't being used in live sets as well as what live sets aren't being used in registrations is obviously HUGE! No, it's not a full fledged librarian but it's an enormous step in the right direction.

Great! I hope that you will find it useful.

After all of the interest in your project I have a hard time believing that I'm the first to actually check it out. Everybody on this sight has had their JP80 longer than I. Come on people!

Hear, hear! :) The best way to help out with this effort is to try out the tool and let me know what you think.

[Jambo]

My hero (aka Kimsnarf)

First of all again - huge props to you for this endeavor! The obvious (at least to me) next step (if even possible within Renoise) would be some way open multiple SVD files simultaneously so I could more easily combine registrations from different parent files. Possibly more important would be a tool that recognizes duplicate tones and live sets (not the names, but the plethora of parameters) and allowed the user to delete duplicates and re link registrations and live sets to the duplicate that was left.

As I stated earlier, I'm a relatively new JP80 owner. But isn't it true that when you use the import command on the synth for a registration - it imports all of the associated tones and live sets - even those that already exist on the instrument? If this indeed how it works, being able to deal with these duplicates seems like a good step in maximizing what one could have loaded at on time.

Thanks again!!!!
Jambo

[cello]

okay, okay - you guys have shamed me into trying it out!

1. Verified - you do not need the JP-80 to be hooked up to PC to read the SVD files

2. Wow - I can't tell you how good it is to see the sounds listed (with dependencies) at last!!!! But I found I would still need pen and paper to write down where a tone was used in x number of livesets (although the tool allows me to see which livesets use them, which I can't get from the JP-80)

3. Would be great to be able to copy sounds between multiple opened files (the V-synth librarian does this - drag and drop between two open files)

4. Is it possible to be more visual-based as opposed to text-based? What I mean is select a registration and it shows how many times its livesets are used elsewhere. Or select a liveset and see where else the tones are used

5. Like Jambo says, the biggest problem with the JP-80 filing system is the creation of duplicates. The inverse relationships are really fantastic but again the text-based display means an awful lot of reading (2,000 sounds and more) - can it be more visual in some way?

6. It's really fast in reading the files

7. I recall there was a great little app that was independently created for Korg's OASYS. I was lucky enough to have both. This randomised simply had a button 'Randomise' and it took the content (combis/patches but for JP-80 would be Livesets/tones) of the opened file and then 'jumbled' it around. Of course some sounds were awful - some however were amazing!

8. Thank you. What a great step. As I said, just to be able to see the whole sound bank's relationships is wonderful. Really appreciate your effort :)

[kimsnarf]

Jambo and cello, thank you for the great feedback!

We think very alike. It's nice to verify that I'm on the right track feature-wise. Important next steps are copying between files and dealing with duplicates. But to implement that I first need to handle moving/copying dependencies for tones. The next feature I'm working on is therefore re-ordering tones (like for live sets and registrations), since I basically get that for free once I handle the dependencies.

The overviews are currently text-based. This is partly because Renoise doesn't provide many GUI elements besides text and buttons (and funky controllers that don't suit presentation of data). There is no list view or scroll view, which would otherwise be my first choice. It is also partly because text can be saved/copied to any external tool that handles CSV-files (e.g. a spreadsheet), which lets you visualize it the way you want.

It would be helpful if you could list some concrete use cases for the various features you want. For instance, what is the purpose of your suggestion to select a live set and see where its tones are used? Is it to figure out if you can delete these tones? If so, perhaps the right solution is to build a delete feature that lets you select various sounds you do not want while informing you how that will affect other sounds. Possibly also selecting all dependencies for you and marking those for deletion as well.

[cello]

Yes, your use cases are right kimsnarf...

1) Check for duplicates

2) Check which tones are used in which livesets

3) Check which Livesets are used by which registrations

4) Create new SVDs which are logically grouped; ie pads only, synth leads only, strings only, etc

I appreciate much of this is already there but as it's text based (and even with the csv export) one still has to work at getting the answers, so a visual approach would be so cool. I understand the Renoise constraints however.

By the way, I started a thread on the JP-80 facebook page (251 members at time of writing). I've asked them to say if they want a librarian, would they pay for it and how much would they pay. So far the suggested revenue of those who have responded is around $720 - from just 10 respondents which is just 2.5% of the membership. Not terribly scientific I know but it suggests that if only 200 JP-80 owners bought a librarian app (not a Renoise add-in), the revenue could be around $15,000 which makes it a worthwhile venture! :)

I'd be willing to build/host a website to help sell the app at http://www.jp-80.com

[Jambo]

okay, okay - you guys have shamed me into trying it out!

Haha - sounds like you're all in now!

Create new SVDs which are logically grouped; ie pads only, synth leads only, strings only, etc

Being primarily a live performer, I'd never thought of that type of organization, but it makes total sense now that you mention it. For me I'd also have SVDs organized dictated by which boards I was taking to the gig. Most of the time it'll be the Kronos and Jp80 midi'd together (once I get done programming the JP) with the Kronos sending several program changes per song to the JP. There will be times that I need to change registrations on the JP without changing the K which is why the easy and quick registration swap already implemented into the librarian is such an enormous help for me! Also I can imagine that there will be several registrations that are virtually identical with the exception of one live set (when I want the same sound with one hand but need to change the sound of the other side of the split) this where dealing with duplicates in a seamless manner is essential to speeding up my workflow.

It would be helpful if you could list some concrete use cases for the various features you want.

OK - in a perfect world, this is how I'd use a Jupiter 80 librarian:

1) be able to open multiple SVD files simultaneously so I can swap registrations between files allowing me to categorize/organize. As Cello mentioned - I'd have one for each: Pads, Orchestral, Synth Leads, etc... But I'd also have specific project sets

2) there should be a command "clear duplicates" that
A) recognizes duplicates (not just names but the parameters)
B) deletes duplicates
C) reroutes the dependencies for both tones and live sets

3) since I'd be changing registrations mostly with midi commands from the Kronos when using both the J & K in a live setting, it'd be helpful to have the registrations numbered sequentially (i.e. 01-bank B-1 = 9) seems like an easy addition to the plug in since they're already read in order.

By the way, I started a thread on the JP-80 facebook page (251 members at time of writing). I've asked them to say if they want a librarian, would they pay for it and how much would they pay. So far the suggested revenue of those who have responded is around $720 - from just 10 respondents which is just 2.5% of the membership. Not terribly scientific I know but it suggests that if only 200 JP-80 owners bought a librarian app (not a Renoise add-in), the revenue could be around $15,000 which makes it a worthwhile venture! :)

I'd be willing to build/host a website to help sell the app at http://www.jp-80.com

Kimsnarf, If you ever decided to consider this venture - I'd do everything I could to help you out! I'm not a programmer, but I could be a dependable beta tester with (what I consider) decent communication skills. I also possess a passion that drives me to want to see this endeavor come to fruition!!!!

[Jambo]

Regarding my comment "recognizes duplicates (not just names but the parameters)"

Simple logic leads me to believe that this would probably be a MASSIVE undertaking considering the number of parameters that make up partials, tones and live sets. I for one can easily remember to rename things when I change them. So since your plug-in already recognizes names - that'd be enough as long as the V1 and V2 (and any other shared SVD files) don't have the same names associated with different sounds. Of course in a perfect world everyone would change the name when making even small adjustments to a tone but since we haven't had a librarian before, I doubt if anyone has concerned themselves with this idea since saving by a different name would normally mean taking up yet another precious memory slot.

In summary -
Recognizing and dealing with duplicates by name is far better than nothing.
Recognizing and dealing with duplicates by parameter is optimal (but could also be so involved that it may be the reason why Roland never released a proper librarian in the first place) nah, strike that last part as there is no excuse other than the simple fact that they dropped the ball!

When I think about the time this plug-in (even just as it stands now) can potentially save me, done by a guy working on it bit by bit in his "free" time. It only makes me question Roland's policies even more than if I'd never seen Kimsnarf's work at all! Why wouldn't they stick a team of programmers on this from the start? Makes no sense to me.

ALL HALE KIMSNARF!!!! Savior of the Jupiter-80

[kimsnarf]

I appreciate your enthusiasm for a paid product! But I am very doubtful about making this a commercial venture. I'm seeking more spare time in my life, not more money. A commercial product requires a fairly high level of quality and support, which are major time sinks. This is just a fun project for me, I don't need another time consuming job. What I get out of this now is interesting challenges and discussions, not demands and bickering. I want to keep it that way. :)

Recognizing duplicates by way of multiple parameters is easier than you think. It's not done by decoding and comparing each parameter, but rather by creating a checksum from the whole block of parameters and comparing these checksums. So it is basically one comparison per sound. Unless Roland has done something really weird. :)

It is hard to understand that Roland did not spend the minor effort of developing better sound management for such an excellent flagship product. With their inside knowledge and experience I estimate it would take them a couple of weeks to implement a very capable librarian. If this tool lead to just a handful more synths being sold it should make up for the investment. Even for a struggling company it should have been a no-brainer.

Your inputs are very useful in guiding further development. I will try to cover the use cases you mentioned.

All hail the mighty Jupiter! God of the digital sound waves! Feared by lesser mortals!

[Jambo]

I completely understand your reluctance to take this into paid product territory! Your need for more time as opposed to money is duly noted and I for one will try to reign in my enthusiasm to push it in that direction. :)

You mentioned it a couple times and in this thread and I don't recall if I've ever touched on the subject, but obviously an "initialize" or "delete" function for each separate layer (tone, live set, registration) would go a long way.

Thanks for all you do kimsnarf!