Keystrike velocity and volume on organ livesets

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RoyR
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Keystrike velocity and volume on organ livesets

Post by RoyR »

I recently started using several of the organ livesets onboard the Jupiter 50, leading me to this question. No replies in the J50 forum so thought I'd ask here:

Faster keystrike velocities always lead to louder sounds on things like piano, strings, flute, and violin. However, on the organ, the volume appears to be a single level, no matter how gently the key is struck. I'll address my experience specifically with liveset 1696 (on J50) called Full Pipe Ranks:

This stock liveset comes with velocity offset sensitivity set to 0 and no velocity curve set (setting is "OFF"), for all four tones. So the liveset sounds at the same volume, no matter the keystrike velocity. Not good, in my opinion. I changed the offsets for each of the tones to sensitivity setting +6, curve 4. Sound level now varies with keystrike velocity.

My question is: Is there an easier way to enable keystrike velocity's effect on sound level across all the tones in a liveset by using a single setting? I find it rather annoying to have to go in and change all four tones to a different velocity value, in order to enable a basic degree of modulation that I consider necessary for expressive playing. Perhaps old-style organs never had velocity-sensitive keys, so this is "normal" for the organ in this liveset?

A side question is: Why do acoustic pianos, for example Supernatural (acoustic) Piano, liveset 1514, modulate properly without any changes? The tone setting for this liveset also shows velocity sensitivity setting 0 and velocity curve tuned OFF...but different keystrike velocities yield different sound levels. So with no velocity offset dialed in, pianos have proper modulation, but I can't see where the setting is.

thanks for any help.

--Roy
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PauloF
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Re: Keystrike velocity and volume on organ livesets

Post by PauloF »

RoyR wrote:I recently started using several of the organ livesets onboard the Jupiter 50, leading me to this question. No replies in the J50 forum so thought I'd ask here:

Faster keystrike velocities always lead to louder sounds on things like piano, strings, flute, and violin. However, on the organ, the volume appears to be a single level, no matter how gently the key is struck. I'll address my experience specifically with liveset 1696 (on J50) called Full Pipe Ranks:

This stock liveset comes with velocity offset sensitivity set to 0 and no velocity curve set (setting is "OFF"), for all four tones. So the liveset sounds at the same volume, no matter the keystrike velocity. Not good, in my opinion. I changed the offsets for each of the tones to sensitivity setting +6, curve 4. Sound level now varies with keystrike velocity.

My question is: Is there an easier way to enable keystrike velocity's effect on sound level across all the tones in a liveset by using a single setting? I find it rather annoying to have to go in and change all four tones to a different velocity value, in order to enable a basic degree of modulation that I consider necessary for expressive playing. Perhaps old-style organs never had velocity-sensitive keys, so this is "normal" for the organ in this liveset?

A side question is: Why do acoustic pianos, for example Supernatural (acoustic) Piano, liveset 1514, modulate properly without any changes? The tone setting for this liveset also shows velocity sensitivity setting 0 and velocity curve tuned OFF...but different keystrike velocities yield different sound levels. So with no velocity offset dialed in, pianos have proper modulation, but I can't see where the setting is.

thanks for any help.

--Roy

Hi Roy,

According to the Roland Manual, the TW Organ Sounds will be unaffected by the strength which you play the keyboard. So changing the velocity curves will not do any modification to the sound whatsoever.

However there are lots of parameters that you can change to enable expressiveness:
  • - 9x Harmonic bars
    - Leakage Level
    - Percussion Switch
    - Percussion Soft
    - Percussion Soft Level
    - Percussion Normal Level
    - Percussion Slow
    - Percussion Slow Time
    - Percussion Fast Time
    - Percussion Recharge Time
    - Percussion Harmonic Bar Level
    - Key ON Click Level
    - Key OFF Click Level
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Andy Keys
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Re: Keystrike velocity and volume on organ livesets

Post by Andy Keys »

Also, real organs (both pipe and tonewheel) don't respond to the velocity of the playing, so it would be inaccurate to recreate it in a synth.
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RoyR
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Re: Keystrike velocity and volume on organ livesets

Post by RoyR »

Paulo...thanks for the suggestions. But all your suggestions pertain specifically to the SN Acoustic Tone 28, Tone Wheel Organ. The liveset I mentioned in my post involves four SN synthesized tones. So the info won't help me. Plus, your suggestions involve fine changes to a single tone, which is not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to find a "global" setting--if there is one--that would change the velocity setting for all 4 tones in the liveset with a single adjustment. I'm not looking for subtle changes in modelling or tone quality...just a varying volume depending on keystrike velocity, for all four tones in a single adjustment.

I'd like to leave the "under the hood" tone adjustments for a later time, if I can! If there is no global setting, someone let me know, and I'll grudgingly start messing with individual tones. :)

Andy...I realize some old-style instruments may not respond to velocity. But I see no reason why that characteristic of the "accuracy" of sound reproduction from a several hundred-year old instrument must be carried over to a modern synthesizer. The electronics can handle it, and I bet many people want it, so why not have velocity sensitivity available on a simulated ancient instrument? :)

That Full Pipes Rank liveset I mentioned in my first post is one monster of a room-filling sonic experience. It needs velocity sensitivity, particularly under my left hand, so one can hear my right hand. I'm no organ purist, but that's how I'd like it to sound.

Thanks again for your help...

--Roy
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PauloF
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Re: Keystrike velocity and volume on organ livesets

Post by PauloF »

RoyR wrote:Paulo...thanks for the suggestions. But all your suggestions pertain specifically to the SN Acoustic Tone 28, Tone Wheel Organ. The liveset I mentioned in my post involves four SN synthesized tones. So the info won't help me. Plus, your suggestions involve fine changes to a single tone, which is not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to find a "global" setting--if there is one--that would change the velocity setting for all 4 tones in the liveset with a single adjustment. I'm not looking for subtle changes in modelling or tone quality...just a varying volume depending on keystrike velocity, for all four tones in a single adjustment.

I'd like to leave the "under the hood" tone adjustments for a later time, if I can! If there is no global setting, someone let me know, and I'll grudgingly start messing with individual tones. :)

Andy...I realize some old-style instruments may not respond to velocity. But I see no reason why that characteristic of the "accuracy" of sound reproduction from a several hundred-year old instrument must be carried over to a modern synthesizer. The electronics can handle it, and I bet many people want it, so why not have velocity sensitivity available on a simulated ancient instrument? :)

That Full Pipes Rank liveset I mentioned in my first post is one monster of a room-filling sonic experience. It needs velocity sensitivity, particularly under my left hand, so one can hear my right hand. I'm no organ purist, but that's how I'd like it to sound.

Thanks again for your help...

--Roy
I'm sorry it my suggestions are out of what you need. The SN-A TW organ that I was referring to is just an example...Andy already answered you on how organs do (not) respond to keyboard velocity anyway.

But I agree with you that on a synth we should be able to allow velocity to affect any parameter (and aftertouch too)
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Andy Keys
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Re: Keystrike velocity and volume on organ livesets

Post by Andy Keys »

Can you route the velocity to control the Expression (usually CC#11)?

I agree with you both that the technology should allow you to go beyond the capabilities of the original, but manufacturers do seem to get obsessed with accurately recreating how the real thing works.

I think there are arguments for both views. An organist approaching a synthesizer would not expect there to be any difference in volume based on their playing velocity, but would look for a Swell (expression) pedal (one of many reasons why organists tend to make lousy pianists, and vice versa). Those of us who are synth-heads understand how it can work, and tend to have more open expectations.
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RoyR
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Re: Keystrike velocity and volume on organ livesets

Post by RoyR »

Do any of you have a favorite liveset or single tone based on an organ that already has velocity factored into it? Perhaps also, there is something organ-like (one of the pads maybe?) that is not called out as an organ that uses velocity?

I admit that I've not examined all the organ livesets and individual organ tones (both acoustic and synthesized) to find something like this. Perhaps one of you can recommend a favorite that has this feature, and I would appreciate that very much.

--Roy
Devnor
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Re: Keystrike velocity and volume on organ livesets

Post by Devnor »

Took me about 15 seconds to add velocity to liveset 1696 on my Jupiter 80. One advantage of the 80 is the ability to select multiple fields and adjust all at the same time. I believe velocity is already built into the SN pianos but you can still modify the response with velocity settings.
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