SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

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synthguy99
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by synthguy99 »

knolan wrote:I'll give it another week, but if I do not hear back from Roland or they do not implement a fix, I feel it is important to flag that with review sites such as Sonicstate.com for the benefit of prospective Roland purchasers.
Erm... point of contention, it can take a month to fix a bug in a videogame. Or longer. It's been a few months in the world of Gran Turismo 6, and we have yet to see our promised features or new monthly tracks. HOW much experience do you have in the world of business and technology? ;-)

As for the subject, I finally got my hands on that Jupiter-50, and I have yet to encounter aliasing this bad. I recall that it was in a couple of the Legends patches. I wonder if simply programming them by hand would make it any better. Or... here's a thought. If you want to make shrieky PWM patches that don't alias much up high, use something else?

I'm afraid that most of my coveted synths would have to go if aliasing was verboten. But they're not going anywhere, and if this JP-50 be mine, neither will it. I have a feeling though that this issue is overstated. Like, way. I only seem to get quality time with it towards the weekends, but so far, nothing but joy. Not perfect joy, but more than I had with a Kronos and PC3. This is one seriously cool synth, and really does deserve to wear the name of Jupiter.
knolan
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by knolan »

synthguy99 wrote:
knolan wrote:I'll give it another week, but if I do not hear back from Roland or they do not implement a fix, I feel it is important to flag that with review sites such as Sonicstate.com for the benefit of prospective Roland purchasers.
Erm... point of contention, it can take a month to fix a bug in a videogame. Or longer. It's been a few months in the world of Gran Turismo 6, and we have yet to see our promised features or new monthly tracks. HOW much experience do you have in the world of business and technology? ;-)

As for the subject, I finally got my hands on that Jupiter-50, and I have yet to encounter aliasing this bad. I recall that it was in a couple of the Legends patches. I wonder if simply programming them by hand would make it any better. Or... here's a thought. If you want to make shrieky PWM patches that don't alias much up high, use something else?

I'm afraid that most of my coveted synths would have to go if aliasing was verboten. But they're not going anywhere, and if this JP-50 be mine, neither will it. I have a feeling though that this issue is overstated. Like, way. I only seem to get quality time with it towards the weekends, but so far, nothing but joy. Not perfect joy, but more than I had with a Kronos and PC3. This is one seriously cool synth, and really does deserve to wear the name of Jupiter.
Synthguy, this issue is NOT overstated on the JP80. Please refer back to the precise steps I mentioned above and replicate that test. You should hear the aliasing louder than the actual wave. You need to follow all the steps of the test - don't skip any steps.

And - what other synths do you own that reveal aliasing on PWM? Could you mention a model or two so we can know on what basis your casting doubt over the issue.

I own perhaps more than 70 synthesizers, and none exhibit this issue, at all. The same is true for the vast majority of plugin synths I own - even the cheapest ones. This sort of issue has been resolved for the majority of synth designers for years, that's what's so suprising about the JP80 exhibiting it. I'm surprised to hear you say aliasing is an issue on other synths. As said, woudl appreciate you mentioning the models you own with the issue

One way or another it'd be useful perhaps for both of us to post a wav on soun cloud as per my instruction on my previous post - you for the for JP50, and I do the same for JP80 as a comparison. Could you do that for your JP50?

But rest assured - we're not picking at knits here - the issue is audible, clearly - and affects the majority of Registrations.

Regarding the timing - I mean wait for a week for some sort of reply from roland uK - nobody here is dumb enough to expect a fix in a week (I'm not expecting one at all).
Dany3
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by Dany3 »

Sorry folks!

I still own and love both of my Jupiter-80s!

This was all just a diabolical stunt, and my final reaction to all the nonsense and BS and especially to user Kevin Nolan's continued and exaggerated critic about the JP-80, by taking it to the point of complete absurdity.

Yes, there are indeed some astonishing aliasing issues audible in higher note ranges with the two selectable variations of the PWM waveform, but ONLY with those two PWM variations, and not with the basic PWM waveform, nor any other waveforms!

But despite those facts and the fact that the Jupiter-80 is Roland's most responsive and musical synth ever built to this day, Kevin just continued his excessive and finally laughable exaggerations. His behavior became destructive and he was really "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

As his relation to his JP-80 appears to be quite neurotic, he should finally ask himself, why he doesn't just sell his ******* JP-80 already and spares us from his blunt negativism in the future...

As a forum participant, I was finally just an actor, especially on GS. It was almost like a sociological experiment and I've created many controversies and emotional drama moments on purpose, because readers love controversy, drama and emotions, which is why they will remember. It is even possible to animate their thinking. This usually works, which is a beautiful facet of human nature.

But there is a strange group dynamic going on at GS. And as every group, they are looking for the "common enemy", which strengthens the self-esteem of the individual members of the group and their identification with the group. Their common enemy is Roland, incarnated by the Jupiter-80. So by taking sides with the JP-80 in a dramatic, theatrical and flamboyant way, I became their common enemy as well and they projected their hate not only on Roland and the JP-80, but also on my forum persona. And in order to discredit my persona, they just claimed, that I work for Roland, etc.. So my forum persona became the "subhuman" and they became the "superrace". Their group ideology is of course "analog“...

It is just a hopeless and irrational place, perfectly reflected by the AIRA thread. And now they praise the AKAI Rhythm Wolf instead, just because it's analog (while bashing AIRA and Roland), although without even having heard a single sound of it...."double facepalm"...

This is the end and I have to quit any future forum participation.

Enjoy your Jupiter-80 and stay happy folks!

Image

PS: Dany= Dany2=Dany3 (due to changing the registered email, resp. canceled email addresses)
knolan
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by knolan »

Hey Dany -

read my last post to you - I was nice and encouraging to you!!

You're going a bit rough on me here - I've been thorough and honest at all junctures - don't blame the messenger!


Just goes to show - offer a neighbour a hand and they bite it off

Lucky I don't take offence easily (now where's that shot gun ?? :-) )


Seriously Dany - read my post a few posts ago imploring you to not give up on JP80 !!


Kevin.
Dany3
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by Dany3 »

Sorry Kevin, I didn't realize your previous post!

It's all good... ;)

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knolan
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by knolan »

Cheers Dany !!!

Delighted you still love and use you JP80's - and I'll try to be more tolerant and balanced in any future posts and analyses - I do tend to 'shoot from the hip' and then retract /soften a bit afterwords.

Best regards,
Kevin.
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cello
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by cello »

This is heartwarming.

I knew you two were really on the same side :)

Nothing wrong with pointing out weaknesses - let's face it, what keyboard doesn't have a weakness?!

However, the same keyboard can have great strengths; and (for me) the JP-80 continues to have many more strengths than weaknesses.

Dany - stick around; no need to throw in the towel. It's good to have you around.

Kevin - keep telling it like you find it; we all learn from such things

Right - on to more serious stuff. I've got to work out where I'm going to put my Aira gear (TR-8 and TB-3) which arrives on Friday...
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PauloF
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by PauloF »

cello wrote:This is heartwarming.

I knew you two were really on the same side :)

Nothing wrong with pointing out weaknesses - let's face it, what keyboard doesn't have a weakness?!

However, the same keyboard can have great strengths; and (for me) the JP-80 continues to have many more strengths than weaknesses.

Dany - stick around; no need to throw in the towel. It's good to have you around.

Kevin - keep telling it like you find it; we all learn from such things

Right - on to more serious stuff. I've got to work out where I'm going to put my Aira gear (TR-8 and TB-3) which arrives on Friday...
+1
Cheers

P.S: Cello, I think you need a new desk ;-)
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SoundworldA.D.
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by SoundworldA.D. »

Right-O!

An interesting thread with a lot of twists and turns, Dany's celebrated return and shocking turn that wasn't really a turn...or was it? Ha! No way WeddingMusicRocks was going to end up in the driver's seat after all with GS Mass Bubbling, mass babbling and tirades inexhaustible. Synth guy's long ago wish to own a Jupiter...a long goal realized...well yeah!!

Now that said, we have in this one yet another KK thread that has generated quite a bit of buzz, but alas, it still has a long way to top the king. At 13,527 views and 330 replies, the other one has stood the test of time and even had a song titled after one of the replies dealing with WMR and a V-Synth patch named after another with the aforementioned Mass Bubbling.

Now what was the name of that famous thread again? Oh yeah, "The Jupiter-80...HUGELY disappointed with it"

We certainly learned not to go TAW!
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Cry me a river boys!
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And finally...aw, who are we kidding? We love you (and the JP-80) Alice B. Toklas!
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synthguy99
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by synthguy99 »

knolan wrote:And - what other synths do you own that reveal aliasing on PWM? Could you mention a model or two so we can know on what basis your casting doubt over the issue.
I can tell you what have, had, and am intimately well acquainted with. Ensoniq SD-1 and TS-10, KORG Z1, JP-8000 and DX7/100/etc, to name a few which have pretty annoying aliasing in upper key/pitch ranges, with any waveform. The DX obviously doing its FM thing.

Also, note that I didn't say the effect wasn't happening, but that I suspect it's overblown. For instance, changing the PWM variation back to primary supposedly helps a lot. Has anyone thought to try it yet on those patches? And as I said, aliasing isn't the end of the world to me. What I have that has aliasing issues aren't going anywhere. They're too musically valuable, even if they are imperfect.

I suppose this post is a little redundant now that you and Dany have hugged and kissed your Jupes as I intend to do as soon as I can - with an iPad no less, so let's hope this is the beginning of musical relationships for everyone, as Soundie puts it so eloquently. ;D
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SoundworldA.D.
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by SoundworldA.D. »

Yes the old peacemaker in me wishes for flowers of love to descend on everyone and for sweet music to touch the ears of all that would hear.

Ah shucks, I have to claim a load of bollocks on that one! How dreadfully boring if everyone just addled on with endless showers of love and agreements galore.

I treasure the banter and help given on these forums and had to laugh heartily at Dany being able to toy with the mass mind to get the all too expected results...even more mass bubbling!

But why are we here in the first place on music forums? I sometimes marvel at the way that technology can have quite a debilitating influence on some people's ability to discern what matters most, be it analog or digital...the music! It almost seems as though every perceived weakness is amplified a hundred fold by those who expect perfection in this computerized world. Others as Dany alluded to, being weak of mind and spirit, just need to be part of something bigger.

On the thread subject, I am quite sure that I don't really know what aliasing actually sounds like. But one thing I do know, when I hear sounds that are too strident or distorted or annoying to be musically useful to me, they are not used, whatever synth they come from, and there have been plenty!

I was of course saddened to hear of this weakness on the Jupiter-80, especially since we wanted Kevin to get on with his after the rough start and all. We can just revel in the fact that through thick and thin, we can still have a due amount of respect for those who would even keep a synth that they were hugely disappointed with in the first place!

As for those who trash and bash synth's that they have never taken the time to plumb the depth's of or (even worse!) never heard...let them eat cake!
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PauloF
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by PauloF »

SoundworldA.D. wrote: I was of course saddened to hear of this weakness on the Jupiter-80, especially since we wanted Kevin to get on with his after the rough start and all. We can just revel in the fact that through thick and thin, we can still have a due amount of respect for those who would even keep a synth that they were hugely disappointed with in the first place!
+1
SoundworldA.D. wrote: As for those who trash and bash synth's that they have never taken the time to plumb the depth's of or (even worse!) never heard...let them eat cake!
eat cake and ...go to the heaven of bashers GS (a much better place for bashing and being destructive)
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SoundworldA.D.
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by SoundworldA.D. »

eat cake and ...go to the heaven of bashers GS (a much better place for bashing and being destructive)
Well every generation needs its own toxic waste dump! Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every once in a while! And the analogarians go "whaaaa!!!!"

Dany was able to plumb the depths of the Mass Mind and escape unscathed. Uh, maybe "toy" with the Mass Mind would be more appropriate. Great entertainment value!

I remember back in the old days wishing that brass and acoustic sounds could sound more realistic. Enter the Supernatural. Even with the aliasing, I still marvel at the sounds my Jupiter-80 can make.

"Make sounds...not war!" ;-)
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Saxifraga
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by Saxifraga »

After getting my grabing fingers (the grabing hands grab all they can! ;) on an Integra I have to admit that the aliasing in the highest octave C6 to C7 is pretty bad. But who the heck is using such high pitched PWM squares anyway? I also have to admit that Korgs iPolysix App does produce a much higher quality or better analog sounding PWM square. The good news is: I can just play the iPolysix with my G6 and sample it. Voila!
knolan
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Re: SynthTone PWM - aliasing?

Post by knolan »

saxifraga -

Thanks for posting regarding the Integra. That suggests the issue is ubiquitous across the entire Roland range - JP80, JP50, Integra and surely the FA range too.


I have to say though, I don't share your indifference to it on numerous counts (and these points not targeted at you personally but the general indifference which I cannot accept):

- surely highest possible quality should be the goal of any self-respecting musician?
- surely if Roland could just try harder and eliminate it, they should
- when you think of the nothing less than slaughtering that myriads of other synth companies have received at the wrath of generations of synth users - right back to SME versus Curtis chips, right up to nothing less than forensic comparisons between the Voyager and MiniMoog; then surely highlighting, and expecting a fix, on a dire PWM issue is the least we should expect from Roland. But I'll go further - quite contentiously and am willing and anticipating a backlash here for saying this - in my opinion a significant part of the reason why such sloppiness is allowed persist is because users of the instrument do not have the interest to complain. This is THE premier Roland forum and I seem to be utterly alone in my grievance. To me, it's not good enough - from Roland - or from this forum.

I'm not saying this as a gripe or wishing to pursue some sort of campaign - I'm saying it because I spent 2,500 Euro on this instrument, and 80% of the Livesets and Registrations use PWM and are therefore useless.

I have to also say that I think its a sign of the absolute shite quality of current pop/dance recordings if JP80 owners are using these patches and not even noticing the effect. To paraphrase John Cleese - it's BLEEDING OBVIOUS to me. Clearly the vast majority of very high profile JP80 users out there have horrendously bad ears and judgement.

In a nutshell - how on God's earth has it come to pass that Roland's Flagship synth has such a devastating flaw, and nobody give a damn. How the hell did Howard Jones not notice this when he endorsed it? How did Sonicstate.com and SOS not notice it when they reviewed it? And why doesn't Roland want to fix it? I'm clearly not on the same planet as every other JP/Integra/FA user because I cannot comprehend this. Standards are through the floor; and I have to say I'm completely comfortable to argue this issue alone - I have standards, and if these instruments are to be worth anything, then in my opinion it is right to expect standards.

A heavy handed post I know and acknowledge - but - not good enough that this problem persists and not good enough that absolutely no user cares enough to write to Roland and request a fix (as I did).

Kevin.
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