What Keyboard has all of this?

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madAhorn
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What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by madAhorn »

Sequencer:
Unlimited tracks; 1536 PPQ resolution; features pattern "Clips" that can be created within a track, and then easily stretched, compressed, copied, repeated and transposed. Song editing functions include step editing, swing, controller scaling and more. Controller chasing and a global "set song length" functions are also featured.

Effects:
16 insert effects distributed over 12 busses, plus two auxiliary sends; featuring over 300 of our award winning effects - reverbs, delays, chorus, flange, phaser, EQs, distortions, Leslie simulators, compressors, and more.

Global EQ:
User controllable master EQ section and master compressor for quick adjustments during live performance. (These do not use up the insert effect resources.)

Controllers:
Pitch wheel, modulation wheel, 9 front panel sliders/drawbar controllers, 2 front panel switches (momentary or toggle, software selectable), 3 switch pedal input, 2 continuous control pedal inputs, mono pressure, Super Ribbon input, breath controller input. Controller values can be "captured" and stored as part of a program.

Arpeggiator:
16 full-featured independent arpeggiators with multiple latch modes, selectable play

Hmm...
Alexandre
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by Alexandre »

Kurzweil PC3
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Artemiy
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by Artemiy »

PLUS, A 240 x 64 angled, backlit LCD w/ dedicated back panel brightness and contrast controls.

WOW!!!
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Artemiy
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by Artemiy »

Moved to Other Gear, by the way.
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madAhorn
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by madAhorn »

Still tempting to buy as a 2nd board if I had the cash...

Magnifying lenses are cheap to buy! :-)
Vlad_77
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by Vlad_77 »

Who cares about the bloody display???? This Kurzweil is a BEAST. There was a time not long ago when large displays were limited to instruments like the Fairlight III.

I imagine the original Moog and Arp owners got along just fine without ANY display lol

Best,
Vlad
cyclops
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by cyclops »

...only if they had provided sampling/sample playback... ;)
Vlad_77
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by Vlad_77 »

I just got the PC3.... and I have never been THIS blown away since I played and bought the X8.

Forget the (discontinued) price bloated OASYS and the "distilled" M3. The synthesis power of this beast is simply frightening. ROMpler plus VAST DSP plus VA-1 Analog, plus, plus plus.

True, no sampling, but I have that covered with my beloved X. The PC3 is simply... the BEST.

Given the choice between the G's IMAX screen and the syntheis power of the PC3... well... displays do NOT at all contribute to power of this magnitude.

And hook up with Sweetwater if you DO plan to buy this monster. Great prices AND they add a lot of new freebies.

As to the age old debate of which has better pianos - the X or the G, the answer is, neither... now. The ultimatGrand is still beautifully expressive, but, the Horowitz and Rubenstein pianos n the PC3 really obliterate the pianos on the X and the G.

The PC3 is the 76 key semi-weighted version of the 88 key PC3X. The semi-weighted keys provide a good balance for the pianist and the organist, synthesist.

Kurzweil owners have long known that the Kurzweil has THE best strings in the business. Well, the K series (now discontinued) even pale to the sonic beauty of the PC3.

The distorted guitars are perhaps the weakness i this board out of the box, but, they DO work well and with VAST, you can create pretty much ANY guitar you could imagine.

A pity Artemiy does not write a Tweakbook for the PC3 however. The complexity of this instrument is quite daunting if you are a patch designer. But, the steep learning curve IS worth it.

I think of the masterpiece that is The Beatles Sgt. Pepper - done on a FOUR track. Imagine sending a Fantom and a PC3 back in time to 1967 to the greatest band of all time! omg What the Fabs would have done with THAT gear!!

I know this is a Roland forum - and I LOVE all of my Roland equipment - 5 of my ten synths/workstations are Roland. But, if you have sampling covered already, buying a G over the PC3 is a waste of money. The G - and indeed the late lamented X cannot EVER come close to the power of the new Kurzweil. So, if yoiu are covered n sampling, GET a PC3!!

The editing software is free and quite comprehensive. So, complaining about the small screen when programming is really a moot point - unless you are in the habit of creating patches during a gig.
elwoodblues1969
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by elwoodblues1969 »

I'll have to agree with Artemiy about the ridiculously small screen,because Kurzweil is about 15 years behind the times and for those of us that need to edit independently from our computers,the PC3's screen is virtually unusable.

For example-some of us like me,have more than one workstation keyboard, & do not care to play "musical chairs" with our collection of keyboards,by hooking one up to a PC and then unplugging it and then plugging in another one.

My hardware set up is separate from my computer set up and the only thing that interconnects the two,is when I attach a USB cable to transfer WAV files from my PC DAW to my Tascam recorder.
Yes,the Kurzweil PC3 has an enormously flexible and potent synth engine and some of the best piano,strings,orchestral & woodwind sounds available,but the PC3's guitar samples are pretty mediocre and the Fantom G wins in this category.

Kurzweil's customer support is the best out there and for good reason,as Kurzweil's are made in Korea and the quality control in the manufacturing plant is not really up to par.
That being said,Kurzweil would not survive without the excellent product support,because the PC3 to this day,still has bugs & gliches that have to be ironed out and I've read instances where display screens fail and the screens freeze up.
If I were to ever buy a Kurzweil,it would probably be the PC3LE...because it has the same sound engine & samples,but no deep editing...so it's pretty much just plug & play...which makes perfect sense for having a tiny display screen and of course,the price is right.

The PC3LE will probably retail at around $1500....if they ever get around to releasing the damn thing....it's been in development since late of last year!

-Elwood
Vlad_77
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by Vlad_77 »

Elwood,

I have not had a single problem at all with the PC3.

As for for the mediocre guitar samples, that really is not a problem because of the PC3's powerful synthesis engines. Yes PLURAL, engines. The trick with Kurzweil instruments is that you have to think beyond the conventional. For instance, you can take - and this goes back to the venerable K2000 - a snare drum one shot and manipulate it into a VERY harmonically rich sawtooth wave. I think we are so used to looking for waveforms that have the name associated with the sound we want. Kurzweil is not quite like that. Look at the different keymaps/samples associated with the pianos, which are by your admission and I agree, among the BEST in the industry. You will see samples that would seem to have NOTHING to do with piano whatsoever, but, turn them off, and the piano sounds no better than the average ROMpler. And again I wouls reiterate that the Kurzweil is NOT just one synthesis engine. There are 128 distinct synthesis methods right out of the box. Also, the new Cascade and Dynamic VAST modes allow you to run different synthesis through one another.
Yes, out of the box, the G has better guitars, I DO agree. But, considering all the PC3 CAN do compared to damn near anything else out there, and it seems to me the choice IS Kurzweil. Frankly, and apologies to G owners, ARX is a joke in comparison. Roland touted this as THE way to go to shape the nuances of hard to emulate instruments such as cellos, violas, violins, etc.
As for the PC3LE, you would be missing out on the real power of Kurzweil. Since it would have VERY limited programability in comparison to the PC3, it just isn't cost effective. You can get a fully updated new PC3X for 2500.00 USD or a PC3 for 2000.00 and have some serious power.
When the Kurzweil PC3 was released it was fraught with bugs - but so was the Fantom G. But, Kurzweil has been VERY good about updates - in fact MUCH quicker than Roland and as I stated previously, this PC3 has been SOLID.
The small display I think is only a problem if you need to do DEEP editing DURING a live performance. But, how much DEEP editing do we do in a live gig? In the studio, you have the editing software, which, like the Fantom Librarian, IS free.
I am not slamming Roland though in this post. FIVE of the ten synths I own are Rolands. I also still use the Boss DR-770. The Fantom X8 is STILL a great board and does exactly what I need it to do and MUCH more. The PC3 FAR surpasses anything the G can do however. The G, in my opinion mind you, is evolutionary. The PC3 is revolutionary. I know I will get flamed for this, but, except for sampling which the PC3 does NOT do - it can compete quite easily with the OASYS and the Neko.
I know that Jordan Rudess is now using a PC3X and the sounds he gets from it make my jaw hit the floor. Seems also that Paul McCartney, Elton John, and Stevie Wonder love this instrument. Not a bad endorsement :)
Elwood, if you can, go to a Kurzweil dealer, sit down with this instrument, TRY to make it crash (provided you have a good dealer who updates firmware/software as needed.). It won't crash, lock-up, freeze, or even steal your girlfriend. Don't be afraid to get into the guts of this beast. I will be the very first to admit that this instrument has an extremely steep learning curve. I wish there was a Tweakbook for it, but, Artemiy's allegiance is to Roland ;) Yes, there are very esoteric mathematical equations in some of the parameters (the FUNs), and yes, the ROM set at first SEEMS limited, but, it IS worth the headache in the end. The PC3LE, if it is what you say it will be - essentially an emasculated PC3 - WILL disappoint you. In fact, I will bet that VA-1 and KB3 will not be included in this keyboard which seems at least to me to be comparable to that MO series from Yamaha that are stripped down Motifs.
Now, for 1895.00 USD, you COULD get a PC361, which is a five octave version of the PC3x/PC3.
I guess finally Elwood, I would say do not rely upon what you have "heard" about any given instrument. Always best to PLAY, which is what we musicians do best. And it may well be that you will still not be terribly interested in the PC3. I know that I played the hell out of a Fantom G8 and just did not feel the love that I did when I bought the X8 just six months before the G was released. At that point, the X8 still had great trade in value, but - and I confess that the bugs and the initial lack of multisampling turned me a bit biased against it - I just didn't feel the same magic out of the G. The acoustic pianos to my ears were at BEST almost as good as the X, the electric guitars were a bit better, but everything else was just not enough to justify the change.
I guess I am a Neo-Luddite, but, the small display does not bother me at all. I still use an XV-88 in my rig, and THAT is a terrible display, but, that XV-88 sounds terrific even today and for years to come. And the worst display? The SH-32. But that little box is a nice piece of kit IMHO.
Sorry for the sermon Elwood and any who are reading this, but, Kurzweil is back. They have the financial backing of a huge auto maker, and while Kurzweil is not spoken in the same breath as the "big three", Kurzweil nonetheless outpowers the best of said big three in so MANY ways. Yes, even the legendary OASYS.

Ahimsa,
Vlad

YIKES: I just noticed after writing this that Elwood is banned. Oh well, c'est la vie.
Parsifal
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by Parsifal »

Hi Vlad, I was about to ask you about the VA-1 and the KB3 but your post is self-explanatory :) I must admit I've listened the demos on Kurzweil site and they're pretty impressive, on the par with Clavia Nord Wave (at least IMHO) - which I thought it might be my next buy.. Never had a Kurz before and a friend said a colleague of his dismissed this board because he thought it had a heavy learning curve. However I'd like a REAL synth (and a contemporary one as well). I know the Nord Wave has Flash for samples but the downside is the keyboard (only 49 keys) and lack of sliders. I'm also contemplating the PC361 which is also a tad cheaper.
First question, which one would be the winner? (your opinion)
Second, I need to ask about the build quality of the PC3 / X / 361. Third, would you recommend it to a "novice" in synthesizers? I must mention it took me about a full year to get the most out of my X8... there's "your usual rompler synthesis" under the hood? or a different approach?
chicks
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by chicks »

PC3 definitely sounds good and has a lot of power to get what you want... it just takes a LONG time and a LOT of button presses to get where you want to go... once you get it down, it can be great but not everyone has the time or eye appointments to do it...

the GUI and learning curve are MAJOR negatives for the Kurz especially as many companies market the fact that you can do many complex things very easily... thats why the big 3 are STILL the big 3... they all at least have decent GUIs.

Kurz might be going the way of beta max and the Zune... equal quality, terrible marketing and implementation
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SammyJames
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by SammyJames »

Artemiy wrote:

PLUS, A 240 x 64 angled, backlit LCD w/ dedicated back panel brightness and contrast controls.

WOW!!!


Now, now... settle down there, Mr. Artemiy.

:D

I used to work for these guys, and although there isn't a lot of love lost between me and them, I still think that they have done an admirable job. It's funny how, as soon as I read this post, I went directly to the Kurzweil web site.

It seems as though they heard your stunning endorsement, because they not only show the keyboard described here, but they seriously upped the ante -- by not just giving you a bigger display, a la Fantom G. They made it possible to view the system on your computer, using the new editor software.

When Roland does the same thing for the Fantom, then they may have me considering becoming a customer again (for workstations -- I buy other Roland stuff of course). Especially if they can break the 128-voice ceiling.


Sammy
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SammyJames
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by SammyJames »

And just to let you know, Art:

I was cracking up here reading your post. I am pretty sure that this is an old thread, but since it got bumped and I read your response, I just couldn't help laughing. I need a good laugh right now. I'm super-duper stressed out at the moment -- having to move to a new city has proven, shall we say, difficult.


Sammy
Vlad_77
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Re: What Keyboard has all of this?

Post by Vlad_77 »

Hi Parsifal,

Good to "hear" from you! Your posts are ALWAYS well considered and provide a lot of room for discussion.

Now, it IS true that the Kurzweils DO have a steep learning curve. To deny that would be a lie. But, it is not because of the display or the button pushes - besides, there is a BEAUTIFUL freeware editor available for it directly from Kurzweil. No, the steep learning curve is due to several considerations. First, this is not a one type of synthesis architecture machine, or even two or five or - is it ten - of the bloated OASYS. 128 different architectures out of the box AND the ability to create your OWN architecture if you are so inclined - I am not ;)
Second, the sheer amount of parameters is nothing short of staggering, even intimidating. But, this is SERIOUS power my friend! For natural instrument emulation, Kurzweil leaves ARX in the dust. And time after time, Kurzweil leads the industry in the clarity and depth of their sounds so this is not just my opinion. True they are not the "big three", but, remeber also that big three refers to the big JAPANESE synth makers. The new Kurzweils are built in Korea, but they are created and engineered i the United States.
Back to programming and parameters, EACH program can be 32 layers deep. Obviously MONSTER patches can be created and remember that EACH program can THEN be assigned to what Kurzweil calls a Setup. Don't get me wrong mate, I do SO love my FX8 and I have heard and played performances on the FG. BOTH are SO far BEHIND Kurzweil comparisons fail. But to get to the other point: you can set keymaps dedicated to getting the proper embrochure of strings, the feel of a worn rosined bow, the leak in the tubes of a Wurly or rhodes, etc. etc. Yes. It IS a lot of work, but, the payoff is amazing. That being said, the sounds right out of the box are stunning and I wager you would not need to do any major tweaking.
You asked about KB3. Well, Kurzweil could have EASILY sold this STRICTLY as an organ emulator and STILL kicked arse. KB3 is actually separate from Dynamic VAST but the real time controls WILL give you everything from Jon Lord to Jimmy Smith and virtually anything else you can think of. Yes, it growls, screams, sputters and hisses just like real Hammonds, Voxes, Farfisas, Crumars and all the wonderful instruments some of us actually got to play. (I am too young to have played a Vox Jaguar, but, how COOL they do sound, and you have it perfectly done in the PC3 series.
Let's see, VA-1: The PC3 generates its own analog waves. AND you have the immense DSP power of Dynamic VAST in addition.
The build of this instrument is solid. No, it isn't a back breaking tank like our beloved Fantom X8s, but, it IS rugged. Onne of the problems of the still powerful K2000 was the sad fact that it felt too fragile. The PC3 series FEELS solid.
Modulation routings are done through ANY source you can imagine. And it gets REALLY freaky when you factor in the esoteric arcana called FUNs. These are quite esoteric mathematical sound modulators that do things to sounds that are just impossible or at least EXTREMELY difficult to attain on just about anything else out there - again including the OASYS and its progeny. (Note to Korg aficianados: I love Korg, but, they really were out of touch with the OASYS. Yes it IS powerful, but, except for sampling, which the PC3 series does NOT have, the OASYS just doesn't have the ooomph).
Anyway...
The PC361 is the five octave version of the larger two - PC3 is 76 key and PC3x is 88 key. But, the PC361 has ALL the power of the larger two.
Remember too that Kurzweil manufactures its own chips that are DEDICATED to making this instrument so frighteningly powerful. We are talking blazing processor speed here folks.
But let's go further: the effects of the PC3 far surpass the industry award winning KDFX effects module. With effects chaining, you can do serious effects nirvana simply not possible on the Motif, OASYS, or FG.
Now, I have said a lot about the complexity of this instrument. It is NOT for the faint of heart Parsifal. The manual itself clocks in at over 400 text dense pages. BUT, Kurzweil has a comprehensive series of GREAT training videos o their site for you to watch for free, done by one of the engineers of this monster. The videos are well done and cover a LOT, so actually, the learning curve is greatly reduced.
Chicks: All due respect, but truly, you are believing the very WRONG press on this instrument. Kurzweil DID go through a rough time it is true. But, when Hyundai bought them, they came back with a vengeance. The stories I have seen floating around the boards about this instrument being glitchy and crash prone are simply untrue - provided you have the latest updates. Again, remember that the FG made a less than auspicious beginning too. However, GIANTS like Paul McCartney, Elton John, Pink Floyd, The Who, Billy Joel, and Stevie Wonder have ALL been longtime Kurzweil users. DAMNED good company I would say. Jordan Rudess is also hammering away beautifully on this new iteration. Betamax? No, not quite my friend.
Hmmm, I did not forget you Parsifal :) How about SIXTEEN independent latching arpeggiators? How about the ability in Cascade Mode to run any synthesis architecture through another?

The winner for ease of use? The Nord Wave. But it, like the admittedly wonderful Korg Radias is basically a one trick pony in comparison. However, in ALL other categories, the PC3 series simply knocks the competition out of the park harder than a Willie Mays (or Albert Pujols) grand slam.

I would suggest this Parsifal: Spend some quality time on Kurzweil's site first. Listen to the demos and ALSO peruse the online video training courses. All will give you a sense of what you would be getting into as well as a sense of how powerful and flexible this instrument is. Obviously, after THAT, the next thing to do is to actually audition one. I know they are not as easy to find as the big three. In fact, here in the States, in Ohio where I live, there is is only ONE Kurzweil dealer I am aware of in Ohio. But, support is NEVER a problem. I know you are in the UK - I miss Blackpool - so I do not know about the availability there. But surely larger cities all the way from Edinboro to London should have them.

So I close this VERY candidly: It is NOT an easy synth/workstation to learn. It requires a bit of a paradigm shift. But, I would say that such a shift - while somewhat painful at first - is a GOOD thing. I will also say out of the box NOT to expect the showy glitzy patches that the big three are famous for. That being said, beyond the base sound set, you ALSO have built in the expansions Classic Keys, Strings, and Orchestral as well as the aforementioned Dynamic VAST, VA-1, and KB-3. The Triple Strike Piano is an industry leader, and Kurzweil is RENOWNED for orchestral emulations. As for being a novice, I assert that EVERYONE is a novice when encountering this kind of power. So, really, the playing field is level.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Roland. I mentioned that five of my ten synths are Roland and I love them all. My old Juno-106 still sees service even. And the combination of just TWO, the FX8 and the PC3 is simply stunning.

Yes, the PC3 WILL piss you off. Again, I HAVE to be honest about that. But, like a fine wine or Guinness, it becomes part of you after a while. (I mention Guinness for those people who HATE stouts. I will NEVER understand that. Lagers and Pilsners are horse piss :p - haha!! Who about does beers!!)

If you DO decide to finally take the plunge, I would suggest getting the very well done free editor for PC or Mac.

Parsifal, judging by the quality of your posts, I am sure that whatever choice you make will be a carefully informed choice that will be right for YOU. And in the end, THAT is what matters most.

Ahimsa,
Vlad

You mentioned it took a year to get comfortable with the X8. Same here. Synthesis techniques do not come easily to me, and in fact, I still find cool things on all the kit i own - even the relatively humble JP-8000 and SH-32. But here is the COOL thing: you could apply the synthesis techniques with which you are comfortable and create new patches fairly easily already.
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