Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

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Jimknopf
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by Jimknopf »

The only real threats for the G are only two *not* coming from Yamaha or Korg:

a) sound choice and programming by Roland:
- really bad choice from existing SRX boards for the G
- a lot of sloppy programming in many patches
- *very* different quality levels across the patches
- questionable covering of differend basic sound areas
(That said: still a lot of very useable and easily tweakable sounds for many purposes on board)

b) customer support
- the degree of missing newsgroup presence is just a sad joke, and *none* of the Roland staff coming by here every half year or year has contributed anything substantial to change that so far
- frequency of *urgent* updates: the first was fast and very important and useful, but the next with such basic functions as full sequencer functionality or smf export is already way too long missing
- missing introduction of ARX boards which really fill gaps or are essential upgrades and can showcase the potential of the new expansion, unlike the first two.
- missing organisation of a useful Roalnd online sound bank, where not only users (big thanks to nav and posters for that!), but also Roland sound engineers should provide worthwile new attepmts at patches they have compeltely blown in the first edition, plus new ones from the existing wave material

Apart from factory sound proramming and missing strong support by Roland I regard the G as the synth with
- *much* better OS and user interface
- *much* better live usability
- for my taste(!) *much* better basic sound character (clear and punchy, but not artificially polished and slightly plastic sounding like other workstations) than both Korg M3s and Yamaha XSs do offer!
L56
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by L56 »

To be honest: I don't think that highly of Korg listening to customer. Read about it in the Karma labs forums. There is a thread about sequencing and several pleas to include a piano roll editor, but Mr Kay stated that this was hard to implement due to the "small" screen and basically it bled death.

So reading about the piano roll editor and the line "you ask, korg delivers" leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth, becuase previously they didn't listen, but talked it down.

I am a previous M3 owner. Great machine, but there were some thing laking from a workstation with no sign of improvement. The previous software updates were not THAT shocking with mainly fixing some bugs. Ok, the extra 512 sounds were great, but I consider new patches not as an OS update.

Apart from that, I applaud Korg for bringing out a MEGA update like this, but imho: the M3 is a great machine, but I doubt it was the success they hoped for and they HAD to do something and that is exactly the reason they started listening.

Lets hope Roland delivers with coming updates and that the Fantom G will nog become the VariOS II ;-)
jessej
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by jessej »

Wow! Great update with extensive features!

jimknopf: Well put! I think the same! I am on the verge of switching brand after seeing how other companies treat their customers. I have already switched three other brands this year..

Windows -> Mac (15 year of use)
Stratocasters -> Les Pauls (25 years of use)
Steinberg Cubase -> Logic (10 years of use)
Roland ->> ?? (10 Years of use)

Bring on the OS update and get your god damn web-presence updated too! It's 2008, not 1978...

- Jesse -
dansgold
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by dansgold »

Wow, and I do mean WOW !!! ... that's an impressive update. Just the sheer quantity of high-quality samples alone ... it compares to being given a half-dozen SRX cards for free! The sequencer updates appear to be pretty solid from what I can see on Korg's site as well.

I have a SonicCell and a Motif Rack XS, and had no plans to get an M3 at all. But jeez ... you get a hell of a lot for $1800 (M3M) ... I might have to reconsider.
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piaknowguy
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by piaknowguy »

There are Fantom X owners out there who remember that the X series was introduced in January of 2004. A year later, the version 2 update became available, adding the ability to linear record 8 stereo audio tracks as well as giving us an addition bank of patches. (Bank 'I') Yes, the X series is not perfect but, after the update, has become a 'classic' workstation that will be enjoyed by it's owners for years to come.

Enter the Fantom X's younger all-be-it bigger brother, the Fantom G! A little rough around the edges maybe, but when it has finished learning the tricks that the Roland programmers can teach it, this will be a 'classic' keyboard workstation like no other IMHO. It all takes time and I, for one, am willing to wait! (And will continue to enjoy both keyboards.)

Cheers!
PiaKnowGuy
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AK-Jake
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by AK-Jake »

Agreed with the above postings of Jimknopf, L56, and Pianknowguy.

I'm a die-hard Korg lover. I have no qualms about my Triton Extreme 88...except that it's a pain in the ass to use compared to my G8!! That said, when the new M3 "Triton Killer" came out, I couldn't wait to play with it and play with it I did.

I didn't like it.

I didn't like the sounds, the interface, the sequencer, the pads, nothing. It felt like an OASYS but didn't feel like an OASYS.

I didn't buy it.

At the beginning of this year, I joined a rock band and went on a buying spree. I got a Motif XS6 (which I'm selling at a substantial loss and replaced with the XS Rack), sold my Triton LE 88 and replaced it with a Triton Extreme 88, got a Fantom G8, etc. I also revisited the M3. Numerous times.

I still didn't like it.

I played my G8 for a good 2-3 hours in the store the day I bought it. It sounded incredible. Then I got it home and played with it for a week or two and found that I didn't like it much. But I played with it, installed the OS 1.10 update, and learned how to use the instrument. Now I love it!!! Yes, it needs a complete overhaul on the soundset. Once that's done and once a few minor missing features are added, I will have ZERO gripes about it.

Back to the M3...

IT HASN'T BEEN SELLING!!!!

Korg released it with a $3500 price tag for the M3-88. One year later, they lowered the price to $3000 and released the famed "512 new free sounds." (I wasn't impressed with them, either.)

IT STILL DIDN'T SELL WELL!!!!

So now they've released this free major OS update/new sound expansion. And it sounds like they REALLY created some great new sounds this time around.

They did it because THEY HAD TO!!!!

So, now it's time for me to go revisit the M3 again, this time with its new sounds and OS update. If it woo's me properly, I'll throw an M3-M in my rack. Otherwise, I'll gladly stick with my Triton Extreme.

And my G8 ain't goin' nowhere!!! (Except maybe to a new owner when I downgrade to a G7.)

Roland sucks in lots of areas, but it's going to take them some time to get the next major OS out the door. Once they do, the Fantom G will be an incredible instrument. Roland hasn't stayed one of the Big-3 by putting out crappy products with no updates. They're working on it. But they need to work on their softer (support/customer service) side at the same time.

My $0.02.
da-man
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by da-man »

whose on first, no who is on second, what's on second, no who is on second

That's my 2 cents on who is leading what. (but we only have 5 cent pieces in Australia you say)

I have a Fantom x8 for 3 years now and at first wasn't impressed with the stock sounds. Then I found the 1000xv sounds Roland let us download for free and have been very happy ever since.
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madAhorn
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by madAhorn »

The Korg updated Winds and Brass sound pretty good!

Hmm...they are finally getting my attention a bit, maybe for the module at least.
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Artemiy
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by Artemiy »

Moved to "Other Gear".
Krisser
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by Krisser »

Yes, piaknowguy, we did get a big update for the Fantom X - but I still find it amazing that we were charged £50 for it (in the UK - I think it was $50 in the US?). To add insult to injury, when I got around to doing the audio update a year after it was released, it was no longer for sale. Not only did Roland not offer a free download, but they didn't even let me pay for it in the end - I had to buy it off another Roland user after a lot of searching around.

I mean, this is software, not hardware. I can just about understand how they might let something like an expansion card go out of stock - but software? That's just so bloody minded of Roland.

I used to own a Korg Triton - there was a major OS update to this in the early months, with lots of new features for the sampler. Like the M3 update, that too was free. And I think I'm right in saying the Motif updates are always free too?

To me, it can really seem at times as if Roland's attitude to it's customers is ratehr mercenary at best.

Grumble...

Krisser
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piaknowguy
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by piaknowguy »

Hi Krisser!

I am sorry that you had to go through that struggle. Also, my apologies for using the word update as opposed to upgrade. After thinking about it, I should not have posted comments on the upgrade in this thread at all!

BTW, you are right. That is the way that Roland chose to market the expansion kit. (Like choosing some newly offered options for a recently purchased new car) The upgrade was not intended to fix existing bugs, but rather offer existing customers some new features.

Customers who purchased a Fantom-X6/7/8 before Jan 1, 2005 could order the expansion kit for a price.

Customers who purchase a Fantom-X6/7/8 after Jan 1, 2005 were entitled to a free v2 upgrade kit while supplies lasted. One simply downloaded and mailed in the coupon.

Having said all that, I would have to agree that the upgrade should have continued to be available from Roland. I am not sure as to why the upgrade had to be distributed on hardware at all. My best guess would be that the software may have triggered conflicts with existing virus-protection programs and therefore would have made internet posting a challenge. Only a guess on my part. Maybe Art can shed some light on this.

Cheers!
PiaKnowGuy
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EJ2
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by EJ2 »

Amongst my collection of Roland gear, I have quite a few Korg pieces as well, including the M3-73. I am really impressed with what Korg has done. This M3 XPanded update is fantastic and presents an incredible array of sounds, not to mention the significantly improved sequencer/recorder more appropriate to a workstation. Korg really completed a super touch down this time. Yes, it did leave a few OASYS owners jealous, but they just need to bide their time, because many of these enhancements will find their way to the big O.

Korg didn't do this because M3 sales are lagging. That's also not true. You can go to KLF and see the serial numbers from the latest users getting on board. They're high. This update has been in the plans for some time. It's true that Korg's road map to the future is well guarded and kept under strict raps. But, this most definitely was not a knee jerk reaction. Korg is just doing what they set out to do.

As for the comment that Korg doesn't listen, that's simply not true. This update followed a massive poll of the Korg user community just a few months ago.It was quite a detailed questionnaire and it looks like Korg really tuned in to user suggestions. In addition, the head honchos at Korg USA, Korg voicing team, the beta groups, and the RnD heads actively participate regularly in many forums, including, but not limited to Karma Lab Forums, Korg Forums, Harmony Central, Sweetwater, etc. Korg does listen.

I know some of the Roland team pop in here now and then too. So, in this respect, I trust they are listening as well. I'm hoping for a few updates and additions to one of my latest acquisitions - the V-synth GT.
Cheers,
Eric
aster
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by aster »

Hi Art why did this get moved? my intention was not to discuss the details of the m3 upgrade/update, but rather highlight some deficiencies in Roland fantom g customer support/communication/value for €. Roland has a great opportunity with the right update(s) to make a good workstation a great workstation. There is nothing wrong with setting the bar high !
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madAhorn
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by madAhorn »

other gear is other gear....

But, good subject...

Of course the M3 has been around longer, has it not...

Give the G a chance. Come on Roland, surprise us!
Septimo
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Re: Korg (M3) are leading in the updates stakes

Post by Septimo »

WOW... This seems just as or if not bigger than what Roland did with the G over the X. Is this really Free for current users?

hopefully the G will get an overhaul like this one since it's still early in the G life, but knowing Roland, they'll just give us a new model. ;)
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