Computer DAWs

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Red Winger
Posts: 982
Joined: 03:24, 30 May 2003
Location: Cal-Y-phony-a

Computer DAWs

Post by Red Winger »

Hey all,

Just a quick query to the brain trust. As I noted in another post (http://forum-s.artemio.net/index.php?ac ... &page=last), I may be looking at getting a DAW software program/interface in the next several months to give some added flexibility. However, not being familiar with these things, I've been struggling to determine which of the various options (ProTools, Logic, Sonar, Cubase, Digital Performer, etc.) give the best bang for the buck. Right now, I have a PC laptop, but I'm not opposed to the idea of picking up a Powerbook (I might do it anyway) if the better solution is something Mac only (like Logic). I will buy an audio/midi interface when I pick up the program (so have been thinking that a solution like the Mbox might be particularly good, as the software comes with it).

Anyone have experience with a couple of these programs that they could share? I'd be very interested in comparisons on which are best for ease of use, power, expandability, quality, etc.

Thanks,
RW
Tony Clifton
Posts: 269
Joined: 19:59, 26 May 2003
Location: NYC/FLA

Re: Computer DAWs

Post by Tony Clifton »

Midi is better suited for Cubase or Logic .
I have a Digi 001 interface on a Mac G4 running ProTools le but it is more for acoustic applications right now ie. vocal overdubbing of both analog and digital projects.
ProTools is not the easiest DAW but the industry standard and great if you go from studio to studio and use portable external drives for storage!
Cubase or Logic have been recommended to me over PT as far as being better suited for computer music(MIDI) and EOU(ease of use)over ProTools' fairly steep learning curve.
I took a thousand buck course in ProTools LE and still don't know much LOL!
If you do get something bundled from Digidesign like the Mbox?
David Franz's Producing in the Home Studio with ProTools(Berklee Press) is invaluable IMHO.
It was my text book for the 101 course.
EM site is good:
http://cmpg2003.emusician.com/
:D
Red Winger
Posts: 982
Joined: 03:24, 30 May 2003
Location: Cal-Y-phony-a

Re: Computer DAWs

Post by Red Winger »

Tony,

Thanks, that's very helpful. I'm looking for something that will be a mix of Midi and Audio, which I understand they all have to one degree or another. What you say is consistent with what I've been reading/hearing as well. The Mbox price point makes the ProTools LE look attractive, but I have been impressed with Logic and Macs in general. Thus, I may just save up my pennies and wait until I can afford the Powerbook/Logic route. Decisions, decisions..... :)

Thanks again for the input, Tony.

Cheers,
RW
Tony Clifton
Posts: 269
Joined: 19:59, 26 May 2003
Location: NYC/FLA

Re: Computer DAWs

Post by Tony Clifton »

RW,
Midi editing is new to me despite the gear I have.
I transfer DATs a lot to cd's in PT and transfer old 2 inch analog tape 24 track sessions from studio to studio via firewire drives.
I actually added the FantomS after I started thinking about making V-drum kits and copying and saving to midi.
Then I said what the heck it's time to get a workstation and add Cubase or Logic to the equation.
I have two dual SCSI internal drives in my G4 that never are used for hardware anymore.
Computer music was a HUGE AFTERTHOUGHT and Macs new OSX needs to settle down like Windows XP finally did LOL.
I haven't even installed the NEW ProTools6 for OSX everything is in OS9 classic running earlier PTLE versions still.
Apple friggin updates OSX every week it seems?
The IBM chip based New G5 next month confuses things more I fear.
As to Power Books I would wait!
I worked on wrist exercises to prevent Carpal Tunnel while playing drums again........
Now I'm a keyboard player........ RUINING THEM ON THE 88 keys and PADS who knew?;-D
Tony Clifton
Posts: 269
Joined: 19:59, 26 May 2003
Location: NYC/FLA

Re: Computer DAWs

Post by Tony Clifton »

RW,
I just talked with the Digidesign Rep about using Mbox or any other Digi interface/pci based card and ProTools LE for midi editing and importing and converting Akai etc on a PC or Mac.
ProTools6.1 is making a big push to more MIDI applications and to be competitive with VST. based Cubase or Logic.
Sampletank a new softsynth plugin for ProTools LE,Logic,Digital Performer or the ProTools TDM system is a new sound module that is a soft synth with some great specs and it imports, reads and converts Akai,WAV,and AIFF.
So if you already have ProTools LE you can add a audio file converter to solve the Akai/FantomS issue!
It's about $350 though and they do offer an LE version for $200 something which is more my speed. :(
Logic is not cpu dependent so the voicing is unlimited.
ProTools would be less then the VST, supported Cubase at 128 max I believe.
Bottomline is I'll have to install PT6.1 and see if there is a demo for Sampletank to try out.
http://www.sampletank.com/
I'm just too poor to buy anything new right now and of course the new G5 is coming out!
HELP!
Peace,
Tony
Red Winger
Posts: 982
Joined: 03:24, 30 May 2003
Location: Cal-Y-phony-a

Re: Computer DAWs

Post by Red Winger »

Hey Tony,

Again, as always, your post is really helpful. Thanks. The thing I like about the Mbox is it's small, I probably won't need a lot of simultaneous recording inputs (at least, not right away) and it's cheap (particularly given that LE comes with it). I've also been thinking about either a Digi -001 or -002 interface, though. All of these, for me, are probably more realistically an item for purchase about 6 months from now, so I may just wait and see what pops up before then from all the various vendors.

Sampletank sounds like a good possibility as well. Doesn't Digital Performer's Halion do much the same thing, though (ie. Akai, Wav, AIFF conversions)? Lots to think over in the coming months. Thanks for your advice and info. As you get more ideas, please keep me posted.

Cheers,
RW
Phil B
Posts: 709
Joined: 05:23, 15 July 2003
Location: NYC

Re: Computer DAWs

Post by Phil B »

One issue I've heard of with the MBox (and all USB 1.0 audio interfaces, for that matter) is latency is pretty high when playing soft synths. The MBox does have a "Mix" knob, I believe, that lets you record live audio (vocals, guitar, etc.) and monitor the physical input rather than waiting for the audio to run through the computer and back out of the MBox. But, for playing soft synths, you don't have that option because the sound is being generated by the computer. I used to have a soundblaster card that couldn't reliably give me less than 20ms of latency when playing soft synths (if that!). It was horrible. There was an obvious delay when playing notes that rendered soft synths practically useless to me. Now, I use a MOTU firewire interface and the latency is comfortably at 4ms - everything's great now and, so far, dependable. So, if you plan on using soft synths, you may want to consider a firewire interface or cardbus or PCI (if you're using a desktop) rather than USB.

And, remember, a lot of good VST soft synths are free!
Red Winger
Posts: 982
Joined: 03:24, 30 May 2003
Location: Cal-Y-phony-a

Re: Computer DAWs

Post by Red Winger »

Phil,

Thanks for the "heads-up" on this. If I could, I'd probably lean towards something more like a Digi 002, but it will all depend on budget, flexibility with whatever programs I wind up choosing, etc. Still in the thinking stage on this one.

By the way, Tony, on the issue of Sampletank and Macs, check out this new announcement:

http://www.apple.com/soundtrack/

Looks like Apple and Emagic are putting out feelers here for broadening the market.

Cheers,
RW
Tony Clifton
Posts: 269
Joined: 19:59, 26 May 2003
Location: NYC/FLA

Re: Computer DAWs

Post by Tony Clifton »

RW
DP's Halion does I believe.
Phil is dead on!
I forgot about that USB hookup.
Maybe Apple will figure out a G5 Powerbook within the year and Digidesign will follow suit with faster USB data rate supported technology?
Apple's Soundtrack is EMAGIC = LOGIC LE basicaly I heard about this thanks for the info and link!
Tony
rf_
Posts: 377
Joined: 03:31, 30 July 2003
Location: rfeinberg@worldwidecredit.com

Re: Computer DAWs

Post by rf_ »

FWIW...Halion is distributed by Steinberg...not MOTU. And its a VST plug in, with no MAS version, so I don't think it will work in Digital Performer, at least not without some kind of VST to MAS wrapper. So Halion is not a great option for DP.

However, there is a simple Freeware utility for the MAC OS9 or X called "Ugly VSTi Interface" that is a standalone application which uses very little CPU resources and will run Halion or any other VST instrument as a stand alone instrument. This would be a great utility for the purposes mentioned here. It by the way, enables through "direct connect" (a Digidesign driver) to pipe any VST instrument into the Protools LE mixer. No automation however...

Ron
Phil B
Posts: 709
Joined: 05:23, 15 July 2003
Location: NYC

Re: Computer DAWs

Post by Phil B »

"It by the way, enables through "direct connect" (a Digidesign driver) to pipe any VST instrument into the Protools LE mixer. "

Hey Ron - would this be of any use if someone was running the latest version of Pro Tools LE (6.0/6.1)? I thought that required RTAS plug in format. I could be wrong though.
rf_
Posts: 377
Joined: 03:31, 30 July 2003
Location: rfeinberg@worldwidecredit.com

Re: Computer DAWs

Post by rf_ »

Hi Phil,

Direct Connect is another driver format that runs in conjuction with RTAS. Real Time Audio Suite plugins are native to PTLE, and offer real time automation. Direct Connect is an audio pipe in to the PTLE mixer for non-native plugins and programs. There is no automation, and it is a one way connection...in...not out, so it has its limitations on how you interface with it. However, the mixer settings are remembered with each saved song, so it does integrate an external program or plugin into your song nicely. You need a direct connect compatible program, such as Ugly VSTi Interface, and to install direct connect drivers (similar to how you install ASIO drivers). Then you will find the program in the plugins list on an Audio Aux Channel in the Mixer. Set up your plug in within Ugly VSTi, and you should be hearing and seeing audio in PTLE's mixer. You can now make settings and even add RTAS plugins to that channel, and save all your settings.

Cool Huh...


Thanks,

Ron
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