Help me choose a decent workstation

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Gambler
Posts: 60
Joined: 00:54, 27 February 2012

Help me choose a decent workstation

Post by Gambler »

Couple of weeks ago I bought a Juno Gi. It was kind of an impulse buy, and I absolutely love the sounds and effects of this thing. However, as I learned more about its functions, it became apparent that Gi isn't very well suited for the type of things I would eventually like to do. (No sequencer, no sampling, no custom patches, no way to write stuff to a USB stick.)

I guess my biggest issue is that I really liked "Grooved & Beats" section and the ability to create ambient sounds by tweaking control knobs while transposing the beat using keys. I want a keyboard that would allow me to write loops like that from scratch.

Long story short, I want to exchange Gi for something more powerful. However, I don't want to compromise the sound quality. It would be awesome if I could pay a bit more money for a similar Roland with sequencer and sampling, but there seems nothing below Phantom G6, which is a bit too expensive for a toy.

Other (somewhat more expensive) options in the store:
Korg M50. (But I don't really like it's stock classical instruments. Are there custom patches that can fix that?)
Kurzweil PC3LE7.
Yamaha MOX6.
Yamaha S70XS.
I could probably demand them to order a Korg M3. (But I think it has the same sounds as M50, right?)

I want something that's on par with Gi in terms of sounds, but has better "workstation" capabilities. At the very least ability to record MIDI natively and ability to play custom pitch-controlled loops that go through effects processor. Also, I'm a bit tired of using computers, so the more I can do without using one, the better.

What would you recommend? And yeah, I realize this is not a question about Roland, but since I've already started lurking here, I thought I would ask anyways.

Edit:
Come to think of it, there is only one thing I really want that that Di doesn't have. I want to be able to record a small multi-instrument loop (like the awesome Groove 007) and pitch-shift it by pressing keys, while retaining real-time control over tone via knobs. That's it. If I had this functionality, I would be happy with the board. However, any workarounds I can think of on Gi would be extremely labor-intensive.
ozy
Posts: 169
Joined: 13:32, 1 December 2010

Re: Help me choose a decent workstation

Post by ozy »

Considering your SPECIFC needs,

I'll recommend you an instrument I HATE (albeit I still OWN it).

A used Korg M3 is the way to go.

It DOESN'T "sound like the m50" (it sounds way better, more outs, digital outs, sampler, radias virtual analogue expansion etc),

and its "karma" module (which is NOT on the m50) is the way to go for arpeggios, real time modulations, customized panel fiddling, etc.

The sequencer and the pattern utilities are nice and clear.

As far as SONIC QUALITY is concerned, I stopped using the M3 and now use a Kurzweil for rompler EPs and pianos, and real analogues for analogue (this is where I hated the M3: too clean and thin EPs, good pads, too "virtual" analogues. But if you are into "cutting" VA, trance-like, the RADIAS is a good synth),

but as a sequencers I still use the M3.

Buy just the module (it includes all sliders, pads, everything, it's not like the usual knobless module), add the radias expansion (for VA power), and go.

(Well, "go": spend some nights learning Karma, THEN go. If you are into "panel music", it's worth it).

Finally: a used M3 module+radias is NOT a scaled-down version of the instrument, it's an old but professional tools.

The yammi and kurz versions you quoted, just like the juno-gi, are more recent but entry-level tools.

Disclaimer: I know ZERO about the Yammis.
Gambler
Posts: 60
Joined: 00:54, 27 February 2012

Re: Help me choose a decent workstation

Post by Gambler »

Well, I am looking for an entry-level workstation. Gi is 90% what I need, but it is extremely frustrating that there seems no way to get the rest of the 10% without shelling out at least one grand, or compromising analogues' quality or being constantly connected to a computer.

If Gi had a sequencer, I could create a loop by copy-paste, if nothing else. Then I would apply effects separately. Not as fun as in real-time, but works as well.
If I could edit the sounds, I could record the entire loop as a sample.
Ideally, of course, it would allow playback of arbitrary pitch-aligned MDI phrases on the loop.

M3-M costs around 1.5k, doesn't it? If I buy it, it would seem more sensible to just buy the entire keyboard for slightly more. Am I missing something?

Maybe I could do loops with Gi and cheaper sequencer. I'm not sure how that would work in terms of integration with Gi's effects, knobs and playback, though.
ozy
Posts: 169
Joined: 13:32, 1 December 2010

Re: Help me choose a decent workstation

Post by ozy »

Gambler wrote:Well, I am looking for an entry-level workstation. M3-M costs around 1.5k, doesn't it? If I buy it, it would seem more sensible to just buy the entire keyboard for slightly more. Am I missing something?
the keybed is worthless IMHO.

the M3's masterkeyboard functions are very limited (as in "embarrassing"), so, you'd be better off with the module and a decent masterkeyboard (maybe with added knobs, etc).

Yes, of course the M3 is more expensive.

But you quoted the M50 and the M3, I just wanted to make you know that the M50 LACKS EXACTLY some functions, related to what you need, which the M3 includes (karma),

and I wanted to dispel your expectations that the m50 will sound like an m3

M3 IS a solution to your problem. Unfortunately it's expensive.
ozy
Posts: 169
Joined: 13:32, 1 December 2010

Re: Help me choose a decent workstation

Post by ozy »

jhonmorkel02 wrote:Computers are now the music source of choice for many consumer audio and multi-media applications. Computer-based music systems will allow you to have long listening sessions without flipping LPs or changing CDs by simply engaging playlists or 'random play' of your music stored on a hard drive via iTunes or other computer music programs.
SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM!!!

Moderator!!!
Gambler
Posts: 60
Joined: 00:54, 27 February 2012

Re: Help me choose a decent workstation

Post by Gambler »

I just wanted to say that I've thought about what you wrote here and decided to follow your advise. Well, mostly. I still got the entire keyboard rather than just M3-M. It will be delivered on Monday.
ozy
Posts: 169
Joined: 13:32, 1 December 2010

Re: Help me choose a decent workstation

Post by ozy »

Gambler wrote:I just wanted to say that I've thought about what you wrote here and decided to follow your advise. Well, mostly. I still got the entire keyboard rather than just M3-M. It will be delivered on Monday.
don't hate me

1) if the SOUND doesn't totally suit your taste (it doesn't suit MINE): did you get the radias expansion? it's worth it, it changes a lot if you are into analogue emulation

2) when you start studying Karma. It is powerful but a bit cumbersome. Karma-lab forum is worth subscribing to.

3) check these words in the infinite M3 manual:

karma (as in: create a pattern and having the keyboard transpose it, modulate it, change sounds while playing it)

RPPR (as in "create real time patterns")

Have fun
Gambler
Posts: 60
Joined: 00:54, 27 February 2012

Re: Help me choose a decent workstation

Post by Gambler »

No hating. You gave sensible and asked-for advise.

I ended up buying back Juno Gi in addition to Korg M3. It's kind of insane to spend this much money on keyboards with my playing skills, but I like both of them for different reasons. Plus, this combo is still cheaper than Kronos or Fantom G6, and I have two keyboards that I can work with simultaneously.

Any advise on how to connect stuff up? Recording sound from both is easy, bit I'm struggling with wiring up stuff for MIDI recordings.

Also, do you have any link to some Radias demos? I'm not sure I understand what it does. It's a VA synth, right?
ozy
Posts: 169
Joined: 13:32, 1 December 2010

Re: Help me choose a decent workstation

Post by ozy »

a) wiring: please be more specific, and I'll help

-------------------------------------------------------

b) radias:

1) are we talking about the MODULE, or about the expansion card which can be installed in the m3 module (exb radias)?

Did you get the latter when buying the m3? If not, look for one.

The radias module, I wouldn't recommend. I had it and sold it. It costs around 700/800 euros, used, and at that price it is expensive, and cumbersone to drive from the m3 (difficult to match midi controls, etc).

On the other hand, the radias exb card is absolutely a MUST for the m3. It perfectly integrates in the m3's sound engine (in a combi, you can layer an acousting string orchestra and a synth strings pad, vocode the latter and not the former, etc... In a song, you may have an acoustic drum track and bass and guitar and a VA bass drum and synth lead. It is seamless. Really nice).

2) RADIAS is not really a "VA", as in "sounds like a prophet or a minimoog, could fool you into believing it's the real thing". It can do that to a limit, it does far better analogues than the m3 samples, but it is not really a virtual emulation of analogues.

Architecture is analogue, but sound is 30% analogue, 70% german digital or hybrid synth. Can be very harsh, cutting, imho seldom gets the warmth and bottom of a real analogue or of dedicated VAs (the nord lead can fool you into believing it's a prophet, the radias won't).

Your choice: if you are into sound creation and not into archeology or covers, the radias could please you. It didn't please me.

So:

a) if you need analogue sounds, don't waste 800 euros for a radias module. spend 500 for a tetr4

b) if you need analogue sounds in the m3, GET the radias exb NOW

c) if you want a modern dance/trance/whatever oriented synth with knobs, you MAY want the radias module rather than a real analogue. But I suspect you might want a used Virus instead.

The radias was not a super-synth IMHO.

The best of the radias is the exb for the m3. THAT makes sense
Gambler
Posts: 60
Joined: 00:54, 27 February 2012

Re: Help me choose a decent workstation

Post by Gambler »

On wiring. M3 has a sequencer and Gi does not. So it makes sense for me to record MIDI on M3. Okay, so I connect Gi's MIDI-out port with M3's MIDI-in port. I can listen to the stuff I'm playing either directly, or by connecton Gi's sound outs to M3 and then listening to M3. So far so good.

Let's say I recorded 1 track. How would I record a second track for the same song, while playing the first one through Gi's sound engine?
ozy
Posts: 169
Joined: 13:32, 1 December 2010

Re: Help me choose a decent workstation

Post by ozy »

cabling is correct

routing is the following:

Gi midi out is set on channel 1

Gi's keyboard on channel (say) 1 goes to the sequencer track you want to record (select that track, hit "record", "start")

Once the songs start, the previously recorded track will play along (all the tracks left unmuted will play indeed).

You will have set that previous track to channel (say) 2, and the Gi will answer to channel 2.

The track will not be set to "record", so it will not be overwritten by accident by any incoming midi message.

You will hear (say) a pad playing on the Gi, and will record a solo line using the m3's sax or vocoder or whatever.

Hit "stop". save the song.

Next you will select another track (say, 3), "playback" the solo on the m3 (set that to channel 3, go on using channel 1 for recording), and the pad on the Gi, and will record a bass on a different track.

and so on.

Was that the idea?



For step-by-step instructions, at this point I strongly recommend reading the "eff" manual,

because dictating every single move on a forum will be impossibly boring and won't really prepare you to all the events.

Create a "test" song (12 bars), make a backup, and make some mistakes on your own. This will teach you in one sunday afternoon. It's really easy once you grasp the idea.

You may as also (snort) check Korgforums, M3 section, because this kind of question has been answered 100 times there.

Hope this helped.
Gambler
Posts: 60
Joined: 00:54, 27 February 2012

Re: Help me choose a decent workstation

Post by Gambler »

I appreciate the reply, and it was almost what I was looking for, but I think I miscommunicated my biggest problem. I couldn't figure out how to make Gi to receive and play several midi channels from an external sequencer simultaneously. As in, I have 3 tracks on my sequencer. I wanted Gi to play a different instrument/patch for each of those tracks.

According to something I've read on another forum this is simply not possible. Gi can only play 2 patches for 2 incoming MIDI channels.
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