Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Forum for JD, JV, XP and XV synthesizers from 1990's

Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby MinorKey » 19:02, 17 October 2017

Hello everyone,

Hope you're all doing fine. This is my very first post and topic on this forum. This topic might even be one of the last ones started by me, because sadly I don't have any Roland gear and at this point, although I'm considering purchasing some Roland synths, I'm not entirely sure that Rolands would work for me. Not that I don't like the Roland sound - on the contrary, but the problem is that I'm practically blind and the fact that there are no accessible PC editors for the more recent offerings is putting me off. I don't want to buy something I like sonically just to end up being frustrated later because of the fact that I'm not able to use it to its full potential. But finally to the point... :-)

I would like to ask for a favor, of course only if what I'm asking for is legal. I would like to reconstruct the Jimmee Dee patch (JV/XV preset bank A, patch # 073) on my Motif. For that I'd need the raw waveforms that make up that patch as well as the sysex dump of the patch if it's possible. As far as I understand this should be legal because a) I'm not asking and nor do I want to have a sample of the entire patch and b) I don't intend to sell or give the samples to anyone. But if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.
Another reason why I think this is legal is that there are a lot of commercially available libraries that openly admit that they are using sampled waveforms of legendary synths. I'm thinking of some of the libraries for the Motif XF here.

I know that what I ask for could be tedious. Perhaps the easiest way to go about it could be by using a dedicated sampling software (such as Sample Robot). If you feel like it perhaps you could sample chromatically. I know that this approach is more time consuming, but at least you wouldn't need to worry about which notes to sample. I would than check every sample individually and could than decide which one of them to keep or delete.

As for the sysex dump, my plan is to load it into ChangeIt and than manually set similar parameters on my Motif. Maybe it's a long shot, but the results could be good. You don't have to worry about the loop points when sampling too much - hopefully I'll be able to work those out somehow.
I don't have much to offer in return, but maybe I could sample some XF waveforms for you allthough I have to admit that I haven't done it before.

Thanks a lot for reading.
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby rcraven » 06:42, 18 October 2017

Hi
while I am recovering from eye surgery myself, let me try to help.
The "Jimmee Dee" patch from my XV3080 is attached as Sysex wrapped in a Midi file so you can just load it into the XV editor by IMPORT the SMF (standard Midi File).
Use the editor to work out how each of the Tones is put together.

The structure is 4 straight Tones (WG->TVF->TVA) so the Motif can handle it.
The sticky issue is copyright. You can get the patch all over the web and I don't think Roland would mind so much, but as they still seem to pack these old samples into new machines I think they would mind me sampling their wave library.
So, as I have a Motif X8 to compare to let me find some similar waves to start you off.

Tone 1 488 Bottle Hit
-> 1269 Glass - but the low end is a bit strange. I would just sample a glass or bottle and put in a loop for close to a triangular/sine wave.

Tone 2 449 Syn Vox 2
-> 915 Ooh L Of - it has a sharper attack so you might like to slow it down a bit.

Tone 3 432 Soft Pad A
-> 930 VPStrings L - it is a little brighter so change the Filter accordingly

Tone 4 568 Spectrum
-> 1090 Spectrum 2 - sounds very close after you tune it up 8 semitones.

Personally I would take this info and use it to make the sound my own.
I would recommend anyone that has more than one synth, to try to emulate one synth sound on another synth.

Not only is this great training for the ear and a way to get to know both synths, but you usually end up with a few really useful new sounds.

Best of luck
Royce
Attachments

[ Play Quicktime file ] Jimmee Dee.mid [ 3.31 KiB | Viewed 259 times ]

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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby MinorKey » 08:49, 18 October 2017

Hello Royce,
Thank you so much for your answer.
Would it be possible for you to generate a sysex dump (.syx file) of the entire preset bank A for me? The MIDI file you provided loads just fine into the XV editor, but the issue is that the editor is not all that accessible to blind users. Come to think of it, now I'm not entirely sure how this works. Perhaps the solution is to write the path to one of the user locations and than create a dump of the entire user bank instead.
I'm trying to use this as an alternative:
http://www.mossgrabers.de/Software/Chan ... ngeIt.html
This one seems to work much better for me than the native editor, but unfortunately I haven't found a way to import the MIDI file you provided so that it gets recognized as XV data.
Otherwise, I think I'll start off with stock XF waveforms and see where that takes me.
Thank you again and I hope that it's not too much to ask.
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby rcraven » 23:36, 18 October 2017

Ok.
You can convert *.Mid (SMF) to Sysex by using my converter if you need to do it on another file.
http://www.bwalk.com.au/MidiUtil/FileConvert.html

I have done it for you and attached it, but the forum doesn't like the 'syx' file extension, so it has been 'zipped' up. (I use the freeware 7-Zip if you can't unzip it.)
Jimmee Dee.zip
It is a sysex file so just unzip it.
(880 Bytes) Downloaded 4 times


For your ongoing sonic research, here are all the ROM presets from my XV3080. I hope this is OK with Roland. I'm sure they'll let me know if it's not.
XV ROM A-E Presets.zip
All XV3080 ROM presets as Sysex files zipped up.
(93.11 KiB) Downloaded 4 times


All the best
Royce
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby MinorKey » 08:59, 19 October 2017

Hello again and thanks a million for your help. :-)
I loaded the PRESET_A.SYX file into the ChangeIt editor and it worked like a charm. I also tried loading the single patch file into it and while it got recognized properly as XV data, the editor behaved a little strange with it. I think that it's just that ChangeIt doesn't like single patch SYX files too much for some reason.
So now the fun can begin! :-D I looked at the parameters very quickly just to see what this patch is made of and I think that the whole process will be interesting to say the least. I do have a static (sampled) version of the entire patch for reference, so I'll atleast be able to tell whether I'm going in the right direction or not.
All this stuff really makes me want to buy a XV. They are really not all that expensive these days, but unfortunately most of the offers on Ebay are from the US or Japan and since I live in Europe, I would have to pay quite high taxes on import. Although I only heard the individual patches on Youtube, I'm a fan of the JV/XV sound, but of course, the fact that I would be able to edit patches without assistance plays a role in my affection for these synths too. :-)
I was looking at the Juno DS the other day and I saw that there are XV patches available for it. Only too bad that there isn't any accessible editor for it out there - otherwise buying it would be a nobrainer for me since it would give me the best of both worlds (both the modern and more retro sound of Roland). I guess I'll ask around more on this forum - who knows, maybe there are some folks here that can give me an advice based on my needs and wants.
Thank you once again, take care and if you want keep an eye on this thread as I'm planning on posting a short sound sample here if I end up with something cool. Although at this moment I have no idea when that might be. :-)
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby rcraven » 00:22, 20 October 2017

Hi
I have converted XV patches to other synths. It started off for the SRX cards but I added other Xv patches later.

Perhaps you might see a Fantom (which will read XV patches without conversion) or FantomS or FantomX or SonicCell that you can buy.

The story is here http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36711&hilit=SRJV#p227226

Here are the converted XV files
http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36711&hilit=SRJV&start=45#p228301

Or if you want some JV1080 converted patches (the XV loads the JV1080 without conversion)
http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36711&hilit=SRJV&start=45#p228311

All the best
Royce
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby MinorKey » 10:03, 20 October 2017

Wow, thanks for those links. I didn't know that that was possible. It must have been hard work to get the conversion to work.
I don't know how accessible the Fantoms are, but at least now I know that there is another way to get those sounds besides buying one of the XV or JV synths.
If I was satisfied with just playing factory presets, I could get any synth I want, but I already have one synth I can't use to its full potential and that I want to sell just for this reason (a Korg M3). I don't want to make the same mistake with my next machine.
Thank you and have a nice weekend.

Edit:
I just came across this program and it seems that with it I'd be able to do basically everything on the Fantoms or earlier Junos:
https://davykager.com/projects/fxed/
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby Calvin7s » 09:37, 21 October 2017

Hi minorkey,

rcraven seems to be one of the most gifted (and helpful) patch conversion users on this forum. I'm blown away that he can keep straight which patch partials/tones sound similar between different models considering there are thousands.

You mentioned you are essentially blind and as somebody born with less than perfect sight that only gets worse with age, I can sympathize. I'm already upset it slows me on today's amazing smartphones.

I was actually considering this Roland Fantom XR for an amazing price simply because the LCD screen is on its last legs.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ROLAND-Fantom- ... Swi8tZ4xaw

That might be right up your alley. Cheap because the LCD is bad, which you wouldn't use anyway except maybe to get the initial USB to PC/Mac connection going. Although now that I posted it here, you might have more competition. I'm even still pondering getting it if the price stays that low.

Disclaimer: This is absolutely not my Fantom XR on ebay. Thankfully, mine still works.

EDIT: Please let me know if you are going to try and get this ebay auction and I won't bid against you. If you don't, then I'm probably gonna see if I can get it.
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby MinorKey » 11:48, 21 October 2017

Hello Calvin7s,
First of all, thanks for your post and tip - it's really kind of you. :-)
I'm not entirely decided on what to buy yet, so just go and try to grab that XR for yourself. Besides, it seems that it does not ship to my country anyway.
I contacted the developer of that program I linked to in my previous post and he told me that while it works reasonably well with the XR, it has some issues. He did not specify what those were, but he did say that they are particularly present in performance mode. Another thing is that he no longer has his XR and so the program is no longer being developed. So now I can't decide whether to risk something from the Fantom series or whether to go with one of the XVs (that seem to have a more stable, but all in all slightly less accessible editor). Although if the native Roland editors were at least as accessible as ChangeIt, I wouldn't complain a bit.
I don't want to buy anything before I sell my M3 or before I at least firmly decide on what I want to replace it with. I keep on returning to the XV series as they are a bit retro now, which is a good thing to me - I find that some of those sounds would work much better with the music I write than the modern synth sounds of my XF for example. Although this is probably also partly due to the fact that my synth programming skills aren't particularly great.
In any case good luck and win that XR! :-)
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby Calvin7s » 16:28, 21 October 2017

I've actually been tinkering with the idea of getting a yamaha motif (or MOX MOXF). My first synth was a Roland and I tend to stick with what familiar. When I start looking at the Yamaha stuff, I get a little lost.

But probably the main thing that has held me back is I've played with romplers all my life. Time to put on the big boy pants and get something that is more about creating analog, FM or some of the other stuff that gives you sounds that are more You as opposed to somebody else.

The XV-5080 seems like a really great machine (haven't had one long). First thing I noticed was it seems to have the best MFX options of all the JV/XV/Fantom X and even Integra tree.

The Roland XV-5080 editor is via MIDI In/Out and not USB, but it is actually quite fun from what little I've played with it.

What do you like best about your Yamaha Motif XF?
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby MinorKey » 16:42, 22 October 2017

Well, to be honest I'm more familiar with the Korg architecture, which is quite ironic considering that Korgs are inaccessible to blind users, at least the more recent ones, but as far as the Motif XF/MoXF go, I like the fact that a patch can consist of up to 8 elements. I believe that Roland calls elements tones. Than there a couple of minor things such as the fact that drum patches (or voices in Yamaha speak) don't get transposed if you change the tuning for the whole machine - as opposed to the Korgs I have had (TR/M50/M3).
Another good thing is that you can install flash memory into both the XF and MoXF, which will keep all your user waveforms even after you power down the machine. I don't know, the current Rolands might have something similar.

Yamaha's approach to things is generally quite fragmented and getting used to it takes time. At least this is my experience.
I don't know how Roland synths work in this regard, but you can't set MIDI channels for the individual parts in performance mode, so if you for example want to play a particular instrument on an external controller you have to use song or pattern mode instead. I know you asked about what I liked and not about what I disliked, but it's a bit limiting that Motif performances can only consist of up to 4 parts (voices/instruments), so if you want to combine more than 4 sounds together, again you have to use song or pattern mode. But of course thanks to the 8 elements in voice mode, you can also make a basic layer/split on a voice level and than put those voices into a performance.
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby Calvin7s » 08:31, 23 October 2017

Thanks. Even just talking about that gives me a bit more grounding when looking at Yamaha stuff.

As far as user waveforms, I assume you mean a user sample as opposed to user patch/voice settings. You can do that on the Fantom, but the XV is just playback, not record.

I've mostly spent my whole musical life just doing MIDI record/playback of rompler patches and that was a brief 1993 to 1995 period where I did it intensely. Career always seemed to leave time for just music writing, but not synth sound exploring. Trying to fix that now. Not to mention, I'm a guitarist first, synth hobbyist 2nd.
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby MinorKey » 09:20, 23 October 2017

Yes, exactly, I meant user samples. :-)
BTW, the Yamaha Montage (released last year) has a completely different architecture and philosophy than the Motifs and so some (if not most) of the things I wrote in my previous post probably don't apply to it. Just so you know in case you start looking at it. :-)
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby MinorKey » 19:00, 18 November 2017

Hello again,
I finally made some progress with my little 'project'. :-)

I can't post a sound sample at the moment, but below I have attached my patch in Motif XS and XF format. I would be very grateful if those of you who have an XS, XF or MoXF could check it out and tell me what you think. rcraven maybe? :-) Hopefully the board admins and members will forgive me for posting Yamaha files here. :-) Just to make it clear, these files only utilize internal Motif waveforms, so everything should be OK from a legal point of view. I feel like I'm on the right track, from what I've been able to discern from the sample of the whole patch I have, it seems that my patch is far more darker and less spacial/airy, but I think that it's definitely recognizable for what it is. I basically ended up copying the AMP and filter envelopes and than I made some manual adjustments. This approach seemed to work pretty nicely, as the overtones I got sound very close to the original. That being said, the volume levels are probably not perfect.

My only real problem so far is that the higher notes are accompanied by rather nasty noise (the higher the note, the larger the noise). At first I thought that I had my chorus effect set up incorrectly, next I thought that this noise is generated by the overtone tracks, but it seems that this is not the case - the noise is most prominent in the 3rd tone (oscillator), which is the one that can be considered the main tone of this patch. I know that this is not a Yamaha forum, but does anyone have an idea what the problem could be (in general synth-terms)?

I think that it's related to filter parameters. I suppose that I could EQ those nasty frequencies out, but I think that it can be done another way as well. Perhaps I need to adjust my filter cutoff depending on the pitch of the notes being played or something, but so far I haven't had much luck with this. This leads me to my next question and this one is finally a Roland one:
Is it correct that the JV and XV patches don't have any EQ blocks? I ask because ChangeIt (the program I use for reviewing Roland patch parameters) does not seem to have any such section in patch editing mode.

Thanks for your help and as always, have fun. :-)
Attachments
Jimmee Dee.zip
(24.28 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
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Re: Could Someone Sample a Couple of Raw Waveforms for Me?

Postby MinorKey » 12:19, 19 November 2017

Hello once again,
On further investigation I found that the noise I wrote about is present in the waveform itself. Now I'm not entirely sure what to do about it, but hopefully I'll come up with something.
I promise I won't bother you with this kind of stuff in the future - I'm aware of the fact that this is not a Roland thing, but I thought that I'd post it here anyway, since what I'm trying to do is largely Roland related.
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