JP50 organs

Forum for JUPITER-50
Richmosar
Posts: 8
Joined: 06:03, 8 September 2013

JP50 organs

Post by Richmosar »

I haven't seen much discussed about the b3 organs in the JP50. I wasn't impressed by what I heard at GC when I tried it out. Didn't really sound any better than my Motif ES organs that I have or my VK8M module.

Wondering on our opinions as I really WANT to like the board but this could be a deal breaker for me.
tnicoson
Posts: 192
Joined: 04:07, 27 January 2013

Re: JP50 organs

Post by tnicoson »

The JP-50's strong points are its superb emulation of all previous Roland (pure) synths (the Jupiters and the Junos) as well as very good emulations of various "acoustic" instruments (Supernatural sounds). B3 emulation is not and was not intended to be one of its strong points. If good B3 emulation is important enough to be a deal breaker for you, you would probably be better off looking into one of the actual B3 emulators (Nord, Roland/Rhodes VK, etc). I am almost certain you would not be happy with the JP-50's performance in that area. That is why you do not see much talk about it here. B3 emulation is not what most of these folks are into.
Vlad_77
Posts: 430
Joined: 18:02, 14 February 2008
Location: The Netherlands

Re: JP50 organs

Post by Vlad_77 »

Hi Richmosar,

I have a Jupiter 80 but the instruments are similar enough that I think I can comment.

I like the organ sounds - except for the theater organs but I think even real theater organs suck. :)

Sound is subjective of course and all of us could give our opinions but ultimately it's up to you. I like the dirtier Jon Lord type organs in the Jupiter but that fits my style of music.

Now, what I will say and this is true of both Jupiters is the lack of real time draw bar control that you'll find on Kronos and the Kurzweil PC3 and PC3/K series.

But what about the positives of the Jupiter? Are the organs that much of a deal breaker if the Motif ES and VK8M are covering that ground?

Weigh the pros of the instrument against what seems one drawback. Is there anything at all that you don't like about the Jupiter? And here's a thought: why not try MIDIing your ES for instance to the Jupiter and work with organ patches on both to create a killer organ patch! Also, have you listened to ALL of the organ live sets in the Jupiter? There's a hell of a lot of them. Another strength of both Jupiters is the insane layering capabilities. You are a synthesist and know that what makes any synth special is that you have the ability to make the instrument your own.

If you still don't like the Jupiter 50 but you still want Roland, within the price range of a Jupiter 50 you have Integra-7 and Fantom X6, 7, 8, can be had for great deals second hand.

Keep in touch Richmosar and please let us know how things work out? I love my Jupiter but that's me. Maybe in the end something else will do more of what you want in terms of organs.

Best,
Vlad
Richmosar
Posts: 8
Joined: 06:03, 8 September 2013

Re: JP50 organs

Post by Richmosar »

The purpose of my getting a jp50 would be to replace my 40lb motif with something lighter. I play mostly classic rock and country music so pianos, organs and natural instruments like strings and violins are what I'd mostly use it for. If I don't opt for the JP50 I may wind up getting a yamaha mx61 which is like a lightweight motif. I do LOVE the pianos in the jp50 though.
tnicoson
Posts: 192
Joined: 04:07, 27 January 2013

Re: JP50 organs

Post by tnicoson »

Sorry, Rich !

I took you for somewhat of a B3 buff. Most of those guys I have known wouldn't even consider anything without 9 real drawbars and a leslie sim at least as good as a "vent", so that's why I gave you such a negative reply. With what you have just posted, I am thinking the the JP-50 might be just what you are looking for and that Vlad's comments might be well worth your serious consideration.

The day I got my JP-50, I had gone out specifically looking for a decent feeling 76 key unit with a good selection of really great piano voices and some other nice sounds thrown in, that didn't leave me with a hernia every time I had to haul it around. So, in that respect, it sounds like you and I have something in common. For me, I find the jazz/rock/lounge organ stuff completely acceptable. Like Vlad, I am not into the church/theater organ stuff, so have no real opinion on that.

Good luck on making your decision.

Regards,

Ted
Richmosar
Posts: 8
Joined: 06:03, 8 September 2013

Re: JP50 organs

Post by Richmosar »

thanks for your feedback Ted and Vlad. Yeah, I'm gonna check the jp50 out again next weekend at GC. The 76 key lightweight aspect is a huge draw for me. I guess I can always use my vk8m module if the b3s are found lacking in there. But my motif es7 is getting unreliably quirky and I'm getting tired of lugging it up the stairs of my basement all the time now.

By the way, are there libraries of patches that I can download in case I ever want to find new and better sounds? I'm not much of a synth programmer by the way!
Richmosar
Posts: 8
Joined: 06:03, 8 September 2013

Re: JP50 organs

Post by Richmosar »

Oh, and I also like the 80s rock like Journey, Styx, Foreigner, etc. so if I wind up choosing a new band that performs that type of material, I think the Jp50 would be up my alley too with those synth sounds.
Vlad_77
Posts: 430
Joined: 18:02, 14 February 2008
Location: The Netherlands

Re: JP50 organs

Post by Vlad_77 »

Hi again Rich,

Thanks to Cello and Soundworld A.D. (both RC members) there is a great site for new patches http://www.jp-80.com. Currently it is a repository for Jupiter 80, V-Synth/V-Synth XT, V-Synth GT, and Integra-7. Other members here like PauloF have also contributed sounds too. I'm pretty confident there will be sounds for the Jupiter 50. It may be that some of the Jupiter 80 sounds there would work but best to ask them.

Now that said, a nice thing about the Jupiters is that you don't have to be a great or even good deep level programmer. I have to use the JP-80 specs because that's what I have so just adjust the numbers for a JP50.

The Jupiter does the reverse of every other synth and workstation on the market (except for Integra-7) in that instead of booting up into patch level, it boots into registration mode. In Korg speak, that would be a Combi, in Kurz lingo, a setup, and in Yamaha and older Rolands performance mode. But, one level down are live sets and you can do a LOT at this level. On the 80, there are over 2500 live sets. These live sets are actually very powerful patches and you can layer these as you desire. The shuffle button allows you to randomize parameters if you want and you can come up with some very interesting sounds. Also, Roland has pretty much covered a lot of the sonic territory you would need for Journey, Styx, Foreigner, etc. That said, IF you need to go into deep synth editing, you can hit synth edit and tweak like a madman. :)

Another option to get the best of both worlds would be to scope out Ebay for a PC3. Make sure it's not one of the "LE" versions. The PC3 is a 76 key synth monster that covers everything and has VA-1 and KB3 included. VA-1 is Kurzweil's virtual analog synth and KB3 is their dedicated B3 engine, and you get nine sliders for real time control. In KB3 mode these are your draw bars, and in VA-1 and Dynamic VAST, these can be assignable controllers to virtually any parameter you want. So let's say you want to crank up both the distortion AND the delay on a lead patch simultaneously. You can easily assign these onto two sliders! Obviously in KB3 mode, these sliders give you the control of a drawbar organ. PC3 is still supported by Kurzweil - their track record in terms of support is IMHO the best in the business among the Big Four. PC3 goes for some pretty nice prices on Ebay. So, if your bank account permits, you COULD get a PC3 and a Jupiter 50 and you are set ,especially if organs are that important, i.e, you need the control you would have on a real organ. KB3 is REALLY good. In fact, I tend to prefer it over CX-3 in Kronos as KB3 has a real vintage sound and feel; CX-3 is good but is a bit too "precise" to my ears. But, you're not considering Kronos so it's a moot point anyway.

If money IS an issue, then you still face a choice. I have only two complaints about the Jupiters: the lack of a librarian because there just isn't enough space to load in/create all the sounds you might want to add, and the lack of real time controls. Not certain how the 50 works, but on the 80, you have the tone blenders for the upper and lower registrations and a knob each for cutoff and resonance. If you don't NEED realtime control over parameters, the Jupiters are fantastic instruments. The pads and leads are simply phenomenal, and the pads are also MASSIVE. You do like the pianos and I have to agree that the acoustic pianos in the Jupiters are really good. [Edit: the D-Beam gives you some realtime control but not as extensive as I would like, but that's just me and what I need a synth to do.

Both the Jupiter 50 and the Kurzweil PC3 have a very important thing in common: each covers considerable sonic territory on their own. If you end up playing in a band that does Styx for instance, the Kurzweil actually has the keymaps for the MUCH more expensive ARP 2500; Dennis DeYoung did a lot of his synth work on the ARP 2500 and 2600. Also with Kurzweil, many of the patches actually have the name of the song they emulate. Punch up Dream On if you are doing the Aerosmith classic, and it IS the patch! Similarly Strawberry Flutes is virtually indistinguishable from the Mellotron that McCartney used for Strawberry Fields.

Both excel at great synth sounds and each has its own character so you can't go wrong with either. Acoustic pianos are much better IMHO on the Jupiters than the PC3 piano for solo work and obviously they will sit well in a mix. Kurz pianos are older samples and while they're good thanks to the wizardry the folks at Kurzweil accomplished, they are essentially the same piano keymaps (waves if you will) as those found in the K2500 which at the time were the industry standard. But the Jupiters give you SN and loveley parameters like Sympathetic Resonance and Damper noise which take the pianos to an eerily realistic level.

EPs are better on the Kurzweil, period. But, how much will you use them? If you're in a Pink Floyd tribute band, doing funk, or doing 60's classic rock, you'll get a lot of variety. That said, when you are moving into Journey, Foreigner, and Styx territory, EPs are not that crucial and you can get away with murder as far as EPs are concerned.

Pads out of the box are very much Jupiter's strong point. Insanely huge and beautiful! For some bizarre reason, Kurzweil was rather stingy with the pads on PC3; each program can contain 32 layers and why there aren't more huge pads on the PC3 is anybody's guess. Oh yes, it can do amazing pads but,you'll have to program them and for some folks, Dynamic VAST is pretty scary and I can't blame them: it's an extremely powerful synth where you actually can create your own DSPs. Throw FUNs - very esoteric mathematical modulators - into the mix - and you might not be too pleased.

Leads are a toss up between the two. The Jupiter out of the box has a LOT more leads to choose from.

Orchestral is where Kurzweil really REALLY shines and for my ears at least, the only hardware instrument that comes close is Kronos, but Kurzweil still spanks Kronos IMHO and yes I have both.

I love Kurzweil, but, as I write this, except for the organs lacking real time control, it seems that the Jupiter 50 is going to be the better choice based upon what you stated, namely:

You don't want to get into deep programming. The Jupiter is far more approachable than the Kurzweil.

You want to be able to cover a wide swath of sonic territory for some 70s and more 80s stuff and again, the approachability/accessibility of a Jupiter is going to give you more instant gratification. Again, I am saying this as a fan of both. :)

Kurzweil PC3 is heavy and if you're tired of lugging your Motif, then the PC3 is not going to be a break for your back; it might break your back instead. ;)

Lastly, Kurzweil dealerships and service centers are a lot harder to find. I was very lucky when I lived in the US as the two cities I called home luckily had Kurzweil dealerships/service centers. In the state of Ohio for instance, there is ONE and only one Kurz dealer. If you are in Toledo, no worries. If you're in Cincinnati, you have a five hour drive.

Even if money wasn't a consideration, I would not encourage you to buy a Jupiter 80 only because it's rather heavy. It's not as bad as a Fantom X or G, but, the 50 is a lot lighter and you still get much of the power of its big sister.

I really think that if you can work around the organs, the Jupiter 50 will be a great synth for virtually anything that doesn't require extensive real time control. Tnicoson is spot on about the 50. I ALMOST bought one actually. I wanted to get it and pair it with an Integra-7, but, the dealer didn't have the I7 in stock so I got the 80 instead. That said, I've spent four months with the Jupiter and I don't regret the purchase at all.

I apologize for the long post, but, I wanted to throw another option out there and as it turns out, I think that still when all is said and done, the Jupiter 50 is the better choice.

Ack! One more thing: you were considering a MOX. Just remember that while it sounds good, you are going to take a polyphony hit as a MOX is 64 voice versus a Jupiter 50 128 voice instrument. Your ES is 128 polyphony, and while the MOX has the wave ROM of the XS, I suspect you will feel the difference in the MOX when you hear the occasional voice stealing. And, like the Jupiter, there are no drawbars for the organ.

LOL I REALLY need to stop making others' eyes bleed with these novels I write. :)

Best,
Vlad
Richmosar
Posts: 8
Joined: 06:03, 8 September 2013

Re: JP50 organs

Post by Richmosar »

Thank you for such a detailed and thorough analysis Vlad. I will definitely take all that into consideration but am leaning towards the JP50 now.

And maybe I should check into the Kronos more before I make any final decisions. I haven't owned a Korg product since way back in the Dw8000 / DS8 days! lol
Vlad_77
Posts: 430
Joined: 18:02, 14 February 2008
Location: The Netherlands

Re: JP50 organs

Post by Vlad_77 »

Richmosar wrote:Thank you for such a detailed and thorough analysis Vlad. I will definitely take all that into consideration but am leaning towards the JP50 now.

And maybe I should check into the Kronos more before I make any final decisions. I haven't owned a Korg product since way back in the Dw8000 / DS8 days! lol
The JP50 is a great synth, so, glad you're leaning that way.

Now, Kronos is a different beast altogether and I love it. The earliest releases suffered from some QC issues but, I've had mine for two years and nary a problem with it. Luckily, since you don't want to get deep into programming, there are thousands of great presets ready to rock. The organs are really good and you have true real time control over them. The VA's are superb and are more powerful and with additional features not present in the original models. The PolySix on Kronos can be 180 voice polyphony, and the MS-20 is now 40 voice polyphony as opposed to the original mono of the original.

Pianos are superb, especially the German Grand which is a Steinway Concert Grand Model D. These are unlooped HUGE samples and the only pianos available in hardware that stream.

The EPs are modeled using Korg's EDS technology. STR-1 is also a modeling engine. MOD-7 is way more than FM BTW.

Now, a few caveats.

AL-1 is a killer VA, but, it's a bear to program, so much so that Dan Philips posted a very detailed tutorial to help users get to grips with this insane VA; it isn't your grandad's VA.

Combined, the manuals for Kronos weigh in at approximately 1600 pages. IF you get a Kronos, my best advice would be to check out Qui Robinez's superb tutorials and use the manuals only when needed.

The sequencer has garnered the most controversy. Rather than employ the sequencer found in the M3 with the cool piano roll and more intuitive features of that sequencer, Kronos sequencer is the same sequencer as that found in OASYS. Cello could tell you more about what to expect there as I find the Fantom X sequencer a LOT easier to use.

I don't want to sound like an advertiser for Korg, but the reality is this:

The Jupiters are superb synthesizers and they are made specifically for that purpose, and except for he lack of meaningful real time controls and a librarian, are superb and I am proud to have an 80 in my rig.

Kronos is a full blown workstation with very deep synthesis and a comparison between the two isn't really fair. If you want sampling, the ability to use your own samples or PCMs provided to take FM to dizzying heights and you want a powerful physical modeler, wave sequencing, and the ability to import Yamaha DX7 patches (over 200,000 available free online) and you want to do a lot of sequencing, the Kronos gives you that Swiss Army knife power.

If you want straight out synthesis in a more friendly environment and you don't need all of the workstation or alternative synthesis features of a Kronos, then the JP50 really seems to be the way to go. Also, Korg 73 and Korg 88 are heavy instruments and weight was a big factor for you. If it wasn't, I would urge you to consider a Jupiter 80 if nothing else than the 256 polyphony and 4 part registrations. But, it's considerably heavier than a JP50.

From your posts, I can see that you are weighing your options very carefully and I know you'll make the decision that's right for you.

Please let us know what you decide? :)

Best,
Vlad
Richmosar
Posts: 8
Joined: 06:03, 8 September 2013

Re: JP50 organs

Post by Richmosar »

Went back to the only GC in Chicago area that had the JP50 but it was on close out and the last one was sold. Wondering what's going on. Are they being discontinued?
Vlad_77
Posts: 430
Joined: 18:02, 14 February 2008
Location: The Netherlands

Re: JP50 organs

Post by Vlad_77 »

The ways of Roland are indeed arcane at times, but, with the release this year of the free Synth Legends sound set, I wouldn't think that either Jupiter is being discontuned unless there is some major that will be announced at Winter NAMM. Still, this is only September and it just wouldn't make sense to discontinue them yet. Even if something is unveiled at Winter NAMM, it won't hit the market until later in the year.

Since you are leaning toward a Jupiter 50, have you tried Sweetwater.com? Great dealer and lightning fast shipping and Sweetwater's customer follow up is superb. They will also deal because they have a LOT more product knowledge than keyboard people at GC and they have lower overhead due to high volume sales. They were my dealer of choice when I lived in America and will be again when I move back.

Best,
Vlad
troggg
Posts: 71
Joined: 18:39, 25 September 2013

Re: JP50 organs

Post by troggg »

Richmosar wrote:Went back to the only GC in Chicago area that had the JP50 but it was on close out and the last one was sold. Wondering what's going on. Are they being discontinued?
I just picked up a clearance JP50 for $1040 at one of the GCs in Denver and I'm thrilled -- so those deals are quite real.

All I can say is I'm awfully glad other people turned up their noses at this board's supposed faults -- no aftertouch, no real time drawbars, not enough controllers -- because what is there will keep me in hog heaven for the next few years.

I'm so happy I didn't settle for a 61-key controller! I mean the Jupiter wasn't even on my radar ... then there it was.

I look forward to participating on this forum.

If you want one, it's really worth calling various GCs to see if they have one. It's a great synth for $2,000 and an unbelievable one for half price.
Vlad_77
Posts: 430
Joined: 18:02, 14 February 2008
Location: The Netherlands

Re: JP50 organs

Post by Vlad_77 »

Welcome to the Jupiter madness! I didn't turn up my nose at the Jupiter 50. In fact, I think it's a VERY capable, powerful instrument. At the time, I was considering a Jupiter 50 PLUS an Integra-7 combination. The store didn't have an Integra-7 in stock, so, I decided to audition the Jupiter 80. It's a hell of a synthesizer and I am glad the store didn't have an Integra-7 as the money I saved allowed me to score a V-Synth. :)

Anyhow, a few of us have been trying to jumpstart the JP50 forum. The two Jupiters actually have more commonalities than differences, so, hopefully, a new user like you can be a big help in getting the JP-50 forum rolling!

Congrats on a SWEET deal and a powerful synth!!

Best,
Vlad
jalbert
Posts: 47
Joined: 06:50, 9 August 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: JP50 organs

Post by jalbert »

Responding to an old thread, just thought I would add that I think GC had these on closeout not necessarily because Roland is discontinuing the JP-50, but because retailers sometimes need to sell existing stock before they can get new ones shipped to them. I don't know if Roland does this, but I suspect GC wanted to be able to acquire various other Roland inventory and needed the JP-50's gone to get it.

Cheers,

jalbert
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