Understanding Stereo Modes between JP50 and DAW

[troggg]

I have searched the manual and its index for "stereo" and can't find where the stereo modes are described. Couldn't find anything useful. They're probably called something else.

Anyway, what I'm trying to figure out is ... using Studio One as my DAW, I have the choice of recording the Jupiter as what it calls an "External Instrument" -- which could be edited or quantized in a MIDI editor --- or recording it directly using left/right audio inputs.

Let's say I choose to edit or quantize what I record, so I pick the first option described above and set up two Instrument (as opposed to audio) tracks. After I'm done, I'm going to want to convert the finished files to audio files. What I haven't been able to wrap my head around is how I can do that in stereo. And it gets more confusing when I think about how to get the Upper and Solo parts to record stereo audio parts.

For example, I just recorded a registration which uses Upper (Channel 1) and Solo (Channel 3) parts.

First question: is each Jupiter channel recorded in stereo (I have Left and Right cables running from the Jupiter into an interface) by default? How/where on the Jupiter can I see the stereo assignments?

btw Studio One does not give the option to record what it terms External Instruments (the Jupiter) in mono or stereo if you want to edit the performance with the MIDI editor; you just get one track of each channel. For example, Track One is Jupiter Channel 3, Track Two is Jupiter Channel 3.

Say I'm done editing and want to convert the finished file to audio. Now I have the choice of a mono or a stereo audio track to record to. I guess I could just choose a stereo track. But what if I wanted to separate that into Left and Right mono tracks? Can I do that, and, if so, how?

Sorry if this is too confusing but hopefully someone understands what I'm getting at and can point me in the right direction! The reason I might sometimes want to wind up with separate mono Audio tracks is for greater mixing and panning flexibility. Thanks.

[PauloF]

I have searched the manual and its index for "stereo" and can't find where the stereo modes are described. Couldn't find anything useful. They're probably called something else.

Anyway, what I'm trying to figure out is ... using Studio One as my DAW, I have the choice of recording the Jupiter as what it calls an "External Instrument" -- which could be edited or quantized in a MIDI editor --- or recording it directly using left/right audio inputs.

Correct, using Studio One you can choose to record Tacks in: INSTRUMENT (MIDI) or AUDIO (Stereo or Mono)

...Let's say I choose to edit or quantize what I record, so I pick the first option described above and set up two Instrument (as opposed to audio) tracks. After I'm done, I'm going to want to convert the finished files to audio files. What I haven't been able to wrap my head around is how I can do that in stereo. And it gets more confusing when I think about how to get the Upper and Solo parts to record stereo audio parts.

Let me try to explain
In order to Quantize, of course you need to choose the MIDI recoding. MIDI just records NOTES, not Sounds, so the term STEREO does not apply to MIDI at all, and only to AUDIO.

After recording the notes (MIDI), you can then check if the timing is ok or any other details and after being happy with the result then convert the MIDI track to AUDIO.

If your External instrument does not have a VST/VSTi (and JUPITER-50 Doesn't), you can't just convert to AUDIO directly and you will need to Play it using the JP-50 part that you want to use and recorded it on another AUDIO Track, and you can do it in MONO or STEREO. Then yo can add all your AUDIO Effects, like Volume and Panning or any other.

For example, I just recorded a registration which uses Upper (Channel 1) and Solo (Channel 3) parts.

First question: is each Jupiter channel recorded in stereo (I have Left and Right cables running from the Jupiter into an interface) by default? How/where on the Jupiter can I see the stereo assignments?

As you have both Left/Right channels connected, the JUPITER sends its AUDIO always in STEREO, the Stereo image being dependent on the Sound being used, but it is on Studio One that you will need to determine what you want:
You can have your Audio INPUT set as 1 INPUT (MONO or STEREO) or 2x INPUTS (MONO L and MONO R), or use always a 1 STEREO INPUT but in Studio One you can switch it between STEREO or MONO provided you created a MONO INPUT (L channel for example) in Song Setup.

...btw Studio One does not give the option to record what it terms External Instruments (the Jupiter) in mono or stereo if you want to edit the performance with the MIDI editor; you just get one track of each channel. For example, Track One is Jupiter Channel 3, Track Two is Jupiter Channel 3.

Yes it does, provided you set it up first in Song Setup like I described in the previous point.

In MIDI you just get the notes played not the Sounds, so there is no STEREO/MONO Concept. It's when you play it back that the STEREO can take its "play".

...Say I'm done editing and want to convert the finished file to audio. Now I have the choice of a mono or a stereo audio track to record to. I guess I could just choose a stereo track. But what if I wanted to separate that into Left and Right mono tracks? Can I do that, and, if so, how?

Yes you can do it in tow ways, just create two different INPUTS in Studio One SONG SETUP, each end assigned to each JP-50's OUTPUTS, example:
Studio One INPUT1= JP-50 L channel
Studio One INPUT2= JP-50 R channel

...Sorry if this is too confusing but hopefully someone understands what I'm getting at and can point me in the right direction! The reason I might sometimes want to wind up with separate mono Audio tracks is for greater mixing and panning flexibility. Thanks.

Not too confusing. You just need to figure out the differences between AUDIO and MIDI and that's it ;-)
Then you will discover that the "nirvana" is in combining both!!!

I hope it helps
take care
Paulo

[troggg]

First, what a nice coincidence that you also have Studio One and a Jupiter!

1) Ah, I didn't realize MIDI contained no stereo information. Thanks for noting that. And that the MIDI stereo is sound-specific on the Jupiter (I'd still like to know where to access these stereo choices on the Jupiter!).

2) I understand that there L, R, and mono options in Studio One Song Setup and do in fact have a set of L/R inputs and a pair of mono channels in a Mackie Onyx Blackbird interface that the Jupiter is directly plugged into (Inputs 3 & 4 on the picture below).

3) I meant that you can choose between mono and stereo Audio tracks in S1, but you can't choose between them for what it calls Instrument Tracks for an External Device like the Jupiter; I believe you can choose between mono and stereo tracks for Virtual Instruments... but not for an External Device. Unless I'm missing something?

4) OK, from carefully reading your much-appreciated response I think to accomplish what I want to do I would have to record the Jupiter's registration in two passes; first, I would record the Jupiter's Channel 1 information through the two mono inputs on my interface that the Jupiter is plugged into ... then I would go back and record the Jupiter's Solo or Channel 3 information onto two more mono tracks. Does that sound right? I don't think I can do what I want to do in one recording pass because I would get both channels' information on the same tracks which would limit my options for the audio tracks.

5) Regarding what you said here:

"Yes you can do it in tow ways, just create two different INPUTS in Studio One SONG SETUP, each end assigned to each JP-50's OUTPUTS, example:
Studio One INPUT1= JP-50 L channel
Studio One INPUT2= JP-50 R channel"

I believe I already have that. Check it out:



So, when recording audio from the Jupiters internal sounds (which was first created as MIDI), maybe I should be using Input L and Input R instead of Input 3 and Input 4?

Or is Input L+R the stereo input you're talking about that I should use?

Thanks!

[PauloF]

First, what a nice coincidence that you also have Studio One and a Jupiter!

1) Ah, I didn't realize MIDI contained no stereo information. Thanks for noting that. And that the MIDI stereo is sound-specific on the Jupiter (I'd still like to know where to access these stereo choices on the Jupiter!).

I do have Studio One and an INTEGRA-7, which is similar to the JUPITER-50 in terms of OUTS, but with 4 Pairs of STEREO OUTPUTS or 8 MONO INPUTS or SUROUND 5.1 (Can be set to be one of the 3 by default). I'm using them as 4x STEREO OUTS (1/2 Main; 3/4 Bass; 5/6 Drums; 7/8 Not used at the moment). This way I can separate the AUDIO from the Specific instruments directly to different AUDI channels on my Interface (Presonus Audiobox 1818 VSL).

You can do something similar with the JP, by using the Main OUTs for the Main Sounds and the SUB-OUT for the Bass sounds or Drum Sounds (just as an example).

2) I understand that there L, R, and mono options in Studio One Song Setup and do in fact have a set of L/R inputs and a pair of mono channels in a Mackie Onyx Blackbird interface that the Jupiter is directly plugged into (Inputs 3 & 4 on the picture below).

3) I meant that you can choose between mono and stereo Audio tracks in S1, but you can't choose between them for what it calls Instrument Tracks for an External Device like the Jupiter; I believe you can choose between mono and stereo tracks for Virtual Instruments... but not for an External Device. Unless I'm missing something?

CORRECT!

4) OK, from carefully reading your much-appreciated response I think to accomplish what I want to do I would have to record the Jupiter's registration in two passes; first, I would record the Jupiter's Channel 1 information through the two mono inputs on my interface that the Jupiter is plugged into ... then I would go back and record the Jupiter's Solo or Channel 3 information onto two more mono tracks. Does that sound right? I don't think I can do what I want to do in one recording pass because I would get both channels' information on the same tracks which would limit my options for the audio tracks.

No, you can do this in two different ways (at least):

1- Using MIDI Recording
- Set an AUDIO track in S1 - INPUT 1/2 (Main OUT of the JP-50) to be your AUDIO guide (you can record it if you want...)
- Set 2x MIDI tracks in S1: One for MIDI channel 1 (your UPPER part) and another for MIDI channel 3 (SOLO Part)

This way you will get 1 Stereo AUDIO Track that contains all Audio Data (that you can use as guide) and two MIDI tracks:
- One MIDI track with the notes played by your JP's UPPER Part
- another MIDI track with the notes played by the JP's Solo Part.
This way, you can do whatever you want. You will be able to play the MIDI tracks and assign whatever Sounds you want on the JP, tweak them at will and finally, record the result on separate Audio tracks.

2- Using AUDIO and MIDI Recording at the same time
- Set a Stereo AUDIO (or 2x MONO) track in S1 - INPUT 1/2 (Main OUT of the JP-50)
- Set another Stereo (or 2x MONO) AUDIO track in S1 - INPUT 3/4 (SUB OUT of the JP-50) and on the JP Assign the SOLO Part (MIDI channel 3) to be output by the SUB-OUT.
- Set 2 MIDI tracks in S1: One for MIDI channel 1 (your UPPER part) and another for MIDI channel 3 (SOLO Part)

This way you will get 1 Stereo AUDIO Track that contains the UPPER Part Audio Data, 1 Stereo AUDIO track that contains the SOLO Part Audio Data and two MIDI tracks:
- One MIDI track with the notes played by your JP's UPPER Part
- another MIDI track with the notes played by the JP's Solo Part.
This way, you have full power to do whatever you want with both AUDIO and MIDI tracks. You will be able to play the MIDI tracks and assign whatever Sounds you want on the JP, tweak them at will and finally, record the result on a separate Audio tracks if necessary.
This way gives you a little more power over the whole system, provided you can spare 4 Blackbird Inputs for the JP-50

5) Regarding what you said here:

"Yes you can do it in tow ways, just create two different INPUTS in Studio One SONG SETUP, each end assigned to each JP-50's OUTPUTS, example:
Studio One INPUT1= JP-50 L channel
Studio One INPUT2= JP-50 R channel"

I believe I already have that. Check it out:

That's ok, but to take advantage of the JP-50 Sub-OUT I would do it this way... Please see drawing

So, when recording audio from the Jupiters internal sounds (which was first created as MIDI), maybe I should be using Input L and Input R instead of Input 3 and Input 4?

Or is Input L+R the stereo input you're talking about that I should use?

Thanks!

As I explained relier, in order to take advantage of the JP-50's Sub-Outs you should use BOTH.

JP-50 Main OUT L ----------------> BlackBird IN 1
JP-50 Main OUT R ----------------> BlackBird IN 2
JP-50 Sub OUT L ----------------> BlackBird IN 3
JP-50 Sub OUT R ----------------> BlackBird IN 4

I hope this makes sense to you ;-)
Cheers,

[troggg]

Paulo, did you see my PM?

[PauloF]

Paulo, did you see my PM?

oops...no, I think I missed it...let me check :-)

[troggg]

Paulo -- OK, I've looked at this hard and have experimented some more. Here's what I conclude -- feel free to chime in where I missed something.

1) Perhaps I wasn't specific enough in my original post. I believe I said I'd like to record 2 channels of edited Jupiter MIDI tracks (The Jupiter's Upper part on MIDI channel 1 and it's Solo part on MIDI channel 3) to stereo audio tracks in Studio One. What I meant to say is that I want to record them to left and right mono tracks ... ideally in one pass.

2) You smartly pointed out that I probably hadn't thought of using the Jupiter's Sub Out and setting up Ins for it in Studio One's Song Setup, which is true. Your picture is a little confusing cause you circled the additional L/R Ins you suggest I could create to maximize the Jupiter's power and labeled them as Outs; I'm guessing you just did that so you didn't have to take two screen shots (Song Setup has two tabs, one for Ins and another for Outs).

3) So, yes, I can record 2 tracks of Studio One Instrument (MIDI) tracks to 2 stereo audio tracks in one pass, but then I would have no control over panning ... and both channels would be recorded on the same audio tracks because they're both being played back through the same audio channels.

4) So ... if I set the Jupiter's Channel 3 to play through the Sub Out, created the S1 Song Setup L/R Ins for it as you suggest, and ran another set of cables from the Jupiter to my interface, then I could record both channels in one pass and wind up with two sets of mono L/R tracks.

5) Without using the Jupiter's Sub Out, I would have to record each channel separately to wind up with L/R mono audio tracks as I originally thought.

What am I still missing? Let's forget trying to record all 3 Jupiter channels for the moment until I wrap my head around this!

Also, I don't hear much difference between the two mono Audio tracks recorded from the Instrument track; I'm still looking for where I can control which notes get sent to which side on the Jupiter.

Lastly, what did you mean about using audio tracks as guide tracks if I know I will have to edit them in a MIDI editor? I haven't heard the term "guide track" before. How do these help us?

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!

[PauloF]

Paulo -- OK, I've looked at this hard and have experimented some more. Here's what I conclude -- feel free to chime in where I missed something.

1) Perhaps I wasn't specific enough in my original post. I believe I said I'd like to record 2 channels of edited Jupiter MIDI tracks (The Jupiter's Upper part on MIDI channel 1 and it's Solo part on MIDI channel 3) to stereo audio tracks in Studio One. What I meant to say is that I want to record them to left and right mono tracks ... ideally in one pass.

I understood what you meant yes.
By recording the 2x MIDI tracks on to Studio One, you are only recording the note info + Pitch Bend + Aftertouch + Modulation + Velocity, but not the sounds themselves. For that you will need to:

1- Also to record audio at the same time (in that case ideally you should have the Main Out of JP-50 connected to a pair of your Audio interface's inputs and JP-50's Sub-out to another pair of inputs of your interface. This way you can have both the MIDI of both channels (1 and 3) and the AUDIO of both Parts at the same time.

2- Record only the MIDI channels and after choosing the right sounds on the playback, bounce the result to two new Audio tracks.

3- Alternativelly use both methods and then choose the best sound to use later in the production

2) You smartly pointed out that I probably hadn't thought of using the Jupiter's Sub Out and setting up Ins for it in Studio One's Song Setup, which is true. Your picture is a little confusing cause you circled the additional L/R Ins you suggest I could create to maximize the Jupiter's power and labeled them as Outs; I'm guessing you just did that so you didn't have to take two screen shots (Song Setup has two tabs, one for Ins and another for Outs).

I added the labels only to say that those Studio One INPUTS should be connected to JP-50's OUTS, but instead of helping, that confused you...

3) So, yes, I can record 2 tracks of Studio One Instrument (MIDI) tracks to 2 stereo audio tracks in one pass, but then I would have no control over panning ... and both channels would be recorded on the same audio tracks because they're both being played back through the same audio channels.

Correct, but Panning is an AUDIO feature, not MIDI. So you can control your panning perfectly by Expanding Envelopes on the Audio Track and adjusting them at will.

4) So ... if I set the Jupiter's Channel 3 to play through the Sub Out, created the S1 Song Setup L/R Ins for it as you suggest, and ran another set of cables from the Jupiter to my interface, then I could record both channels in one pass and wind up with two sets of mono L/R tracks.

Correct
You will end up with two sets of MONO L/R AUDIO tracks (or two Stereo AUDIO Tracks, which in this case is the same thing.

5) Without using the Jupiter's Sub Out, I would have to record each channel separately to wind up with L/R mono audio tracks as I originally thought.

Yes, but that way you need to do it in several passes to be able to record all JP-50 Parts in different AUDIO tracks. That's why MIDI is so useful here. You can record ALL the 3 Parts of the JP-50 at the same time, one on each MIDI track and then after carefully choosing and tweaking the Sounds to be used, bounce the data to 3 different AUDIO tracks.

What am I still missing? Let's forget trying to record all 3 Jupiter channels for the moment until I wrap my head around this!

As said above actually, with one AUDIO STEREO Cable and a MIDI Interface you can record the 3 JP-50 Parts at the same time, one on each MIDI track and an AUDIO track that contains all the AUDIO that are being output from the JP while you record

Also, I don't hear much difference between the two mono Audio tracks recorded from the Instrument track; I'm still looking for where I can control which notes get sent to which side on the Jupiter.

That only depends on the waveforms used to build the TONES. Ones are more obviously Stereo Panned than others. Others are MONO only.

Lastly, what did you mean about using audio tracks as guide tracks if I know I will have to edit them in a MIDI editor? I haven't heard the term "guide track" before. How do these help us?

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!

As said above, using only one STEREO (or two MONO Cables ) and recording an AUDIO track together with the MIDI channels you can record the 3 JP-50 Parts at the same time including and AUDIO track that contains all the AUDIO that are being output from the JP while you record.

I hope I was clear enough. But in case I didn't, don't hesitate to ask again, as sometimes writing is not the best way to explain one thing.

besides English not being my mother language... ;-)

[troggg]

Hey, your English is great! You've really helped me. I get it now.

I suspect you are a lot more accurate a keyboard player than I am which explains why you record audio at the same time as MIDI; I'm inventive, but not that accurate, so I almost always have to edit what I play, especially if it's a four minute song that's challenging for me to play. It sounds natural when the dust clears.

I think in my past I've heard certain keyboards where there were settings modes for stereo, like how severe the panning is, Voice 1 goes L, Voice 2 goes R, and so on, so I expected a more modern synth would have these too (like people expect the JP would transmit and receive 16 MIDI channels in 2014!). But things in life are not always what we expect.

Even though Studio One treats "External Instruments" uniquely compared to Cubase and Logic, it does have some MIDI properties it excels at -- like rock solid MIDI timing and the ability to do a few tricks I've discovered on the S1 forum. As one guy said:

"I can set up a loop in S1 and cycle over and over in record and just jump midi tracks on the fly and when you do this the sound changes obviously to the track you land on. Extra notes are simply added in. I can go in and out of record to rehearse and back into record again. All this gaplessly without a hitch. Quite a few DAW's cannot do this at all!"

There's a lot of different ways to get down the road ...