Integra 7 SN Polyphony Issue

[c24kgold]

Does anyone know how many voices that they supernatural sounds use?

I contacted Roland, but the fellow didn't know.
He could only tell me that the SN sounds use a different technology than the PCM sounds, so it didn't really use voices as such.

I'm having some issues with layering supernatural sounds. I like to mix the supernatural cello & violin with the supernatural Strings Sect 1. It helps add more realism to the sound. The same goes for layer the Brass sections as well.

I tested the supernatural sounds by sustaining a single voice PCM sound and then walking up sustaining supernatural sounds until the PCM sound cut out.

With several tests like this, it seems like the SN sounds use about 8 voices.
That almost makes layering SN sounds completely prohibitive.
I can only sustain 16 notes with one SN sound.

Has anyone else run into this problem, or am I doing something wrong.

This is for the Acoustic SN sounds, I haven't tested out the SN Synth yet.

[Chrisk-K]

I haven't bought an I-7 yet. But, the I-7 is no different from other modern workstations/synths like the Motif, the Kronos, etc. Although they claim to offer 100+ voice polyphony, one usually gets 16 voice polyphony or less if he wants to have a full sounding patch. And they are marketed as workstations. That doesn't bother me. The guitar has only 6 voice polyphony, and no guitarist ever complained about the lack of polyphony.

[PauloF]

Does anyone know how many voices that they supernatural sounds use?

I contacted Roland, but the fellow didn't know.
He could only tell me that the SN sounds use a different technology than the PCM sounds, so it didn't really use voices as such.

I'm having some issues with layering supernatural sounds. I like to mix the supernatural cello & violin with the supernatural Strings Sect 1. It helps add more realism to the sound. The same goes for layer the Brass sections as well.

I tested the supernatural sounds by sustaining a single voice PCM sound and then walking up sustaining supernatural sounds until the PCM sound cut out.

With several tests like this, it seems like the SN sounds use about 8 voices.
That almost makes layering SN sounds completely prohibitive.
I can only sustain 16 notes with one SN sound.

Has anyone else run into this problem, or am I doing something wrong.

This is for the Acoustic SN sounds, I haven't tested out the SN Synth yet.

Please clarify on the following:
- How many notes and tones were you playing when making the test?
- Were you mixing Poly and Mono tones together?
- how many SN and how many PCM tones were played at the same time?

[c24kgold]

The guitar has only 6 voice polyphony, and no guitarist ever complained about the lack of polyphony.

Yes, but if you strum a 6 note chord into the I7, you have already used 48 voices of your 128 polyphony.
We're down to 80.
A basic drum rhythm of Hi-hat, Snare & Kick is made up of 24 voices, 8 * 3.
This doesn't count any crashes or toms.
Now we are down to 56 voices of polyphony.
A bass usually only play one note at a time although when the next note is being played, the last one isn't finished.
So this would take up 16 voices, 8 * 2.
Now we're down to 40 voices of polyphony.
So this leaves 5 notes left for anymore SN instruments.
This is also not taking into account of the acoustic guitar sustaining.

I realize that maybe all of these instruments don't take up 8 voices for every note.
This is just what I have been finding with experimenting.
At 8 voices per note, it really eats up the polyphony fast.
And if you are using any sustaining, than that doubles it up.

I just need to know if anyone has come across and info on SuperNatural voice polyphony.

Because as it stands, I couldn't make a very large studio composition with SN sounds.
There seems to be a reason that roland put 16 parts on this, but you can't use more than 4 or 5.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I love the SN sound in this thing.

[SoundworldA.D.]

I just need to know if anyone has come across and info on SuperNatural voice polyphony.

I searched long and hard to come up with some kind of answer to this conundrum but hit a wall with the only explanation as to voice allocation being the rather elusive "varies according to sound engine load."

I have to think that your test demonstrating that up to 8 voices per key on a SuperNATURAL-A may provide some clue as to how many "voices" it takes for BMT to do what it does so well. I would propose that all of those articulations that wow us may be also gobbling up some polyphony.

Perhaps that is why there is not a surfeit of material as to how many voices this obviously highly guarded technology that goes beyond what the old velocity switching does actually uses.

At any rate, I understand your plight at not having the ability to have all 16 parts hammering away with 8 notes available for each, but in that respect, it is not all that different from the XV-5080 (also 128 voice) where if you tried to layer some of those rich pads that used 4-tones per note in the perfomance mode, you would run out of voices long before you were able to stack too many of them.

[PauloF]

I just need to know if anyone has come across and info on SuperNatural voice polyphony.

I searched long and hard to come up with some kind of answer to this conundrum but hit a wall with the only explanation as to voice allocation being the rather elusive "varies according to sound engine load."

I have to think that your test demonstrating that up to 8 voices per key on a SuperNATURAL-A may provide some clue as to how many "voices" it takes for BMT to do what it does so well. I would propose that all of those articulations that wow us may be also gobbling up some polyphony.

Perhaps that is why there is not a surfeit of material as to how many voices this obviously highly guarded technology that goes beyond what the old velocity switching does actually uses.

At any rate, I understand your plight at not having the ability to have all 16 parts hammering away with 8 notes available for each, but in that respect, it is not all that different from the XV-5080 (also 128 voice) where if you tried to layer some of those rich pads that used 4-tones per note in the perfomance mode, you would run out of voices long before you were able to stack too many of them.

Correct, we had the exact same issue with the Fantoms. That's why I bought a SonicCell and a DR-880. To extend the Fantom voices far beyond the 128, as it was impossible to use it as a Piano (or Pad/Strings), Bass and Drums at the same time...

[keysme]

"Roland gave the Integra-7... 16 parts with dedicated effects for each part and a higher oscillator count than the JP-80. Just when you think how powerful that can be they tell you they've "halved" the polyphony to 128??"

I guess Roland wants you to spend $1,500 extra on a Jupiter-80 if you want 256 note polyphony. Oh well..

All hope is not lost. Unless Roland decides to nix any future high-end 'workstation' keyboards that include 256 note polyphony that is. A true workstation keyboard with all the bells and whistles of the Integra-7 (but also having 256 note polyphony) would be a much bigger ticket item than a rack-mount in my opinion. The Integra-7 sounds good on many levels and in many categories. Some of the new guitar patches are really nice. My local Guitar Center has the Integra-7 in stock and if not for already having the Fantom G7 I would likely have purchased one.

I'm waiting... going on four years now... for a Fantom-G successor. If Roland comes through with something similar sound-wise to the Integra-7 e.g. all Supernatural sounds of the JP-80, all 12 SRX, plus the many new guitar sounds, etc., plus it includes 256 not polyphony - across the board - and a Sampler and Sequencer and other professional features... I will be the first in line to get one most likely. And in 88 keys if the weight is reduced significantly from the current FG8. Roland could theoretically charge $4,000 for a 76 key version, $3,499 for the 61 key version and possibly $4,799 or higher for the 88 key version. And still sell a boat load of them in my opinion. I guess we can still dream. Whether it translates into reality is anyone's guess. ;)

[anotherscott]

I guess Roland wants you to spend $1,500 extra on a Jupiter-80 if you want 256 note polyphony.

Or a second I7

[Devnor]

Same deal with JP80. You can't utilize all the polyphony on just one tone or live set. Determining where those limits are can be a challenge & I think it varies with the type of SN instrument used.

[anotherscott]

The guitar has only 6 voice polyphony, and no guitarist ever complained about the lack of polyphony.

Yes, but if you strum a 6 note chord into the I7, you have already used 48 voices of your 128 polyphony.

How did you determine that 6 notes of SN guitar takes 48 voices of polyphony?

[kenchan]

if you load up one of the virtual SRX cards, does that eat from the 128 poly, or is that a separate sound engine from SN?

[PauloF]

if you load up one of the virtual SRX cards, does that eat from the 128 poly, or is that a separate sound engine from SN?

it has a different engine from SN to play PCM sounds, but how the total polyphony is organized, is yet to be known...

[kenchan]

if you load up one of the virtual SRX cards, does that eat from the 128 poly, or is that a separate sound engine from SN?

it has a different engine from SN to play PCM sounds, but how the total polyphony is organized, is yet to be known...

i see... sounds complicated. i like how kronos has separate sound engines for each of the categories. that way a piano sound will not eat away at guitar, etc. right?

from the sound of it, the I7 is more geared towards only playing one or two SN instruments at a time... or used as a mult-part 'better than general midi tone generator' to back a completely separate live instrument (vocal, guitar, acoustic piano, etc)...?? hummmm...

[Chrisk-K]

i see... sounds complicated. i like how kronos has separate sound engines for each of the categories. that way a piano sound will not eat away at guitar, etc. right?

Your assumption is not right. The Kronos's engines share a single processor. An increase in polyphony in one engine reduces polyphony in another engine.

[kenchan]

i see... sounds complicated. i like how kronos has separate sound engines for each of the categories. that way a piano sound will not eat away at guitar, etc. right?

Your assumption is not right. The Kronos's engines share a single processor. An increase in polyphony in one engine reduces polyphony in another engine.

Oh is that right. That sucks. The more reason why I'm glad I did not get one then.