Controlling Supernatural Synth with BCR2000

[TornadoTed]

I have had the Integra 7 about a month and it is an impressive piece of kit. I am using the PC sound editor which is pretty good but I would prefer some more hands on control.

Anyone using a Behringer BCR2000 or similar to control the Integra 7?

I did a search on here and BCR2000 produced no results and I also couldn't find any mention of the combo with a Google search.

[LA Keys]

The "problem" with just about ALL Roland synths is that you need to use system exclusive messages (sysex) to control their parameters. This is not easy but you can control just about anything this way.

If you want to send sysex from the BCR2000 you should use the free BCmanager available from moutain utilities: http://mountainutilities.eu/.

I tried that but gave up mostly because it's a one way communication, meaning that the BCR200 is NOT reading the value from the Integra 7, which was a big problem for me.

The second option you have is to use Roland "matrix control", this is more limited but much easier once you understand how it work. See page 63 of the parameters manual for that.

LA

[lol]

Besides, despite the learn function on the BCR2000, you cannot use it to implement sysex lines from the Integra-7 MIDI output directly, for there is a definitive bug in the BCR2000 OS, it can't read sysex right. Once you've got it figured out on the BC Manager how to write sysex properly, it works on the BCR2000, but it's a real nightmare, you have to implement each line the hard way, really no fun to use.

But maybe you're better at sysex...

But there's probably more to do with the BCR2000 today, see this if you don't already know about it http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2014/ ... sequencer/

[TornadoTed]

Thanks guys.

I've never done any sysex apart from dumping settings at the start of a track from the MIDI out. You aren't selling the experience well :o) so I think maybe I will stick to the computer editor.

[Macska]

Since you specifically say "supernatural synth" I've got to mention the iPad editor. An iPad 2 on ebay costs the same as the BCR2000. The only real use of it is editing the Supernatural synth parameters and selecting patches. Grab a wireless adapter for under $10 and you're set with a hands on touch screen editor that can sit on top of your keyboard no problem.

[Happy]

Planning to order the BCR2000 today, not only for the I7 but also other Roland and non-Roland hardware synths, Now I read this, some doubts. As a solution, anyone has experience with Bohm MIDI Translator to convert CC's into SYSEX for the I7 or other machines ? Main purpose would be to have physical buttons to control the osc, filters, amps ADSR etc.. Would that work (even that would be an extensive editing job) . Route: BCR2000 => USB/MIDI => PC (Bohm => USB/MIDI I7. Site: http://www.bome.com/products/miditranslator. Any other solution that work better for this like the livid DS1 ? Seems there is not much choice on the market today for controllers with many configurable knobs and buttons.

[lol]

Passing by, since I instigated the doubt, let me be very precise about the BCR2000 : yes it handles SYSEX properly, but to pass the SYSEX strings to the BCR, you cannot do it easily from the learn mode of the bCR, where you would simply connect the midi out of the Integra-7 (after enabling "edit midi out") to the midi in of the BCR hit learn button, move a knob on the bcr, move the value wheel on the desired parameter on the Interga, and let the magic happen. This works with CCs, but the BCR2000 cannot handle SYSEX that way, it would read ERR each time, and it's a bug in the OS more than a normal feature, a bug that was never fixed.

To add the proper SYSEX string line to the BCR, you have to plug the midi out of the Integra to a computer, listen to incoming SYSEX in MIDIOX for instance (or read directly from the Integra's MIDI Chart if you can), and then close MIDI OX to release the midi port, open the BCR editor in the proper BCR mode, find a way to interpret the SYSEX properly to instruct the BCR, send to the BCR, change the BCR mode to be able to work with MIDI, test and see. If it works back to step one, this for each and every command, unless you're fluent in both SYSEX and BCR editor parameters, no way really to speed up the process...

So yes it works, but be prepared to spend a good week on that before you actually do some music..

Next remarks are generally speaking and do not prejudge of your midi and sysex knowledge, nor of your hard work applying them : unless you learn by heart the function of each knob and rotary on the controller, you'll be lost in no time with your myriad of controls you don't remember how to use. This being true with all general purpose control surfaces, the learning curve is steep and you should consider spending a few weeks only at this task to learn and master your controller patches, if you want to use it really. Otherwise, if it's only a few hours a week, you'll forget everything and you would simply have done this painful SYSEX editing job for next to nothing.

You can also take the problem the other way, compose your music and then, if you need some automation in the parameters, edit specific parameters on the DAW or with a controller. Less ideal power in the control, but much more effective results in the real life. If you need knobs and sliders, the Integra-7 is maybe not the kind of synth you need.

So maybe if you don't exactly know what you do (that is, if you haven't done it before), you should think twice : controllers promise something that is really hard to put together, and it leaves you in the desire of controlling things which is mostly an illusion and a marketing appeal. I don't know of anybody able to remember 50 parameters (the BCR is 32X48 if I remember), with or without giant lists on the wall, or paper guides on the controller (you would need to swap 32 of them, or even a few, no joy!), without practicing this thing again and again for months. It's a nice marketing offer, but it's a mirage for most people. It promises to simplify things with your other gears, it actually adds another complexity level.

VST or Ipad editors are free, already configured, and so easy to use, you only have 2 hands, you won't be controlling more than 2 knobs at a time on your machine, are you sure you want to loose your illusions on that?

[Happy]

Many thanks for the advise. The SN synth is still unexplored sound territory in my view and I prefer knobs over menu diving (Jupiter 80) or a PC editor (Rolands and the 3rd party solution). The BCR2000 is quite low cost for such a lot of buttons and there must be a reason it's still sold for 10+ years. It's a lot quicker than building a customized DIY controller. Sysex is not a problem. The I7 SN partial's memory map (from the MIDI implementation guide) is quite basic and straightforward. One partial has about 30 important 7 bit variables so next step is to make a CC to sysex translator, preferably in HTML5/WebMIDI . This saves lots of time for GUI coding .If that works the BCR2000 is on the shopping list. BTW, the bug in the BCR2000 seems also solvable with a bit of coding changing illegal characters in the Sysex dump file coming from it but perhaps BCEdit 0.6 released a few day ago does that already. (there is a blog/forum with some sample code). I looked at the Livid, but that products is much more expensive and can''t send Sysex either it seems.

Some last questions:

1. Does the BCR2000 driver work in Win 10 , 64 bit?
(It specifies USB MIDI compliant, so should work on Linux, suppose)

2. Is there a BC2000 dump file format specification?
I looked at a sysex of the factory defaults and surprisingly the data it's mostly ASCII.
This would help instead of reverse engineering :-))

[lol]

Glad to see you know what you are doing. The BCR2000 is a sturdy convenient device anyway. It understands SYSEX perfectly, only it won't recognize them in the learn mode. But once properly edited in the bcedit, no problem at all with SYSEX.

[Macska]

Here's wishing it would've made sense for Roland to do this again -

[Happy]

Thanks folks, Love the MKS-80 + sounds. Would like Roland to release 19" based analog stuff (again) but more than just mono-timbral 5U. 5U is too much . An 1U MKS80 + maybe adding other synths must be possible. I don't have space for keys but keys is the state of the industry to get stuff sold. Anyhow, after a lazy afternoon learning and experimenting WebMIDI, the conclusion is that WebMidi is dead as a solution due to the fact that the people creating this API have disabled sysex because of the concern that some people may not know what they are doing (by default web users are stupid) and malware sends sysex to the device (corruption e.g overwriting the firmware) and so far they have not been able to figure out a way how to allow Sysex authorization from the user. It's one of the reason why the Web will never ever be equal to native code. I tested it and Sysex not work on any Midi port. (sysex: true). I can receive CC message from a device (that would be a BCR2000 in the future) in the browser and send it to the I7, but any Sysex is filtered out. (the picture show code which receives data from a device and send it to another device, the latency is surprisingly low) So next,thinking about a hybrid solution using ipMIDI to be able to send sysex to the I7 with HTML/Javascript. Last resort will be to code a translator in C++/Java.

[lol]

Maybe I didn't read the entire thread, but why do you want to convert #CCs to SYSEX or whatever? You just instruct the controller with the proper SYSEX or #cc and you can immediately start using the controller to tweak the sounds of the module. Isn't what you want to do? The problem is not it wouldn't work with the BCR2000, it's only it would work using the bcedit and not the BCR2000 onboard learn function. I don't exactly get it, as the BCR2000 reads #CCs from the MIDI output of the target directly in learn mode, and it handles SYSEX properly when instructed properly.

Anyway I sold my BCR2000 years ago because of exactly this : solutions that end up not working the easy way and only tempered with more unsatisfactory solutions. But if this is a way for you to actually make more music, it's worth the effort. To me it was a way to make some more tech work and manipulation and less music, but everyone is different of course.

Have fun

[Happy]

Hi lol, Thanks for all your comments and advise. Ofcourse, definitely understand you point and thanks for the warning that the BCR2000 in the end might be anti-productive ( :-)). Was just playing around a bit with WebMidi and exploring this "tech" . I am not sure how the BCR2000 will turn out for me. We'll see. Hope it works under Windows 10, otherwise it will be Linux only.

[Monkey Man]

Filter cutoff & resonance, amp attack and decay and so on follow the GM CC spec, don't they?

Unless you need more than this level of control, the GM-standard MIDI CCs should do the job, and you should be able to send them from pretty much any MIDI controller keyboard / fader bank...

[TornadoTed]

Life seems far too short to get into trying to make the BCR work with the Integra 7. It's a shame as it is a pretty deep synth.

If only they would come out with a controller similar to the Boutique JP8 or JU06 minus the synth engine of course.