Piano sounds

Forum for Integra 7

Piano sounds

Postby rb293 » 12:43, 29 August 2016

I just purchased a new Integra to compliment my Yamaha Montage. I have to say I am disappointed in the acoustic piano sounds. They seem toy like compared to the Montage. I am using the same monitors for the sound so it is not the speakers. It does not have a full body sound. I did have a Fantom x keyboard at one time and it sounded great. Why would the Integra module sound so different? Am I missing something that I have to adjust while using the Montage as controller for the Integra? Any thoughts or ideas? thanks Ron
rb293
 
Posts: 2
Joined: 12:34, 29 August 2016


Re: Piano sounds

Postby lol » 08:08, 30 August 2016

Interesting, could you please post examples of the two instruments on a soundcloud somewhere so that we can find out how they compare precisely.

Beyond the simple fact of subjectivity when it comes to liking or not a piano :

Montage pianos are those from the Motif/MOXF CFIIS and S6, plus the new CFX and the Bösendorfer. I don't think any of these have advanced pianistic behavior, like sympathetic resonances, alternate samples, and they are still based on velocity switches which would inevitably be audible at some point.

I liked the S6, but found the CFIIIS was a caricature of a piano. Apparently the CFX and the Bösendorfer are even bigger pianos than the CFIIIS, I'm not sure this is going the woody and intimate way the S6 was capable of...

Yamaha tones are nice nonetheless, but Roland pianos have this extra realism in many details that make them perfect for practice. And if you want large sample sets in the Integra-7 to play with the pedal down all the way to let them resonate, you can still use the excellent samples from the SRX cards, they are the same generation technologically speaking than the Motif/Montage, and they sound about as good.

Supernatural pianos are better because of the way they react when you play, not maybe the most-over-the-top-rich-sounding-piano-that-you-never-get-a-chance-to-play-in-real-for-your-head-is-not-a-multi-mic-console, but the best to repeatedly come back and practice without feeling the day when you suddenly hear it's a sample playing back, dead as a dead cow. Once you reach this point, this sampled piano sound is dead to you. It happens with AWM2 pianos, and everybody in here already sold his Motif/Moxf indeed (or anyway many of us did), whereas the Integra-7 remains, 24/7/365, the main tool to play and practice the piano when it's not on the acoustic.

This is my experience anyway. Yamaha pianos, been there, seen that, and have come back to the Integra-7. Even if the damper resonance is not very impressive on it. And I must say, back to the Integra-7 over any other software piano solution, because it's immediate, and it doesn't cheat with too good a sound, it requires you to actually play the piano to sound good, and this is excellent to practice and progress, a sound that is neutral enough not to bore you over time, but not too beautiful so that you don't think you're there yet, and keep working on making progress.

And there's another point I almost forgot, when you have the Integra-7 pianos in context in a song, they remain pianistic all the way though the song, they are easy to fit in a mix, they cut through the rest of the instruments. The edit functions are limited but quite interesting, character parameter for instance allows for each piano to go from woody to nasal tones, which is a great basis to work with EQ, Spectrum, Enhancer, Compressor effects for instance to dial in just the tone you're after. Some sampled pianos on the Yamahas, I'm sorry, from grandiloquent when played in solo (with the ridicule it implies of solemness and posed grandiosity, think of the CFIIIS with that in mind, you'd laugh), tend to sound totally artificial and synthetic when in the context of more acoustic sounds than they are, which make them a bad choice for mixing. The S6 was not like that though, and the Woody Piano patch for instance was very capable of blending well in jazz contexts. In the Integra-7, the mineral nature of the acoustic tone of the pianos, shine through the mixes, with great homogeneity, and it's not the case with any other synth I know of.

But now the Integra-7 is nearly 5 years old, Roland will announce or so I hope on Sept 9th, a second generation of Supernatural instruments, with even better pianos! Yamaha didn't even started to improve their AWM2 technology...
lol
 
Posts: 83
Joined: 10:04, 9 April 2014

Re: Piano sounds

Postby psionic311 » 13:53, 30 August 2016

I was also initially disappointed in the Integra 7 pianos.

Then I panned them far left and far right. It was a phasing issue. Now they sound very good. They are more alive than my Kronos pianos.

Try panning before you pan the pianos (see what I did there? =)
psionic311
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 00:37, 21 August 2016

Re: Piano sounds

Postby PauloF » 20:27, 30 August 2016

psionic311 wrote:I was also initially disappointed in the Integra 7 pianos.

Then I panned them far left and far right. It was a phasing issue. Now they sound very good. They are more alive than my Kronos pianos.

Try panning before you pan the pianos (see what I did there? =)


Welcome to the Clan psionic311!

I do have an Integra-7 and a MOXF6, and none of the MOXF pianos match the richness or "authenticity" of the integra's SuperNatural Pianos.

Without any tweaking, the integra's SN Piano stands out of the box!

If we compare the PCM ones with the MOXF, then I tend to agree that we get more similar Ac Pianos, some better on i-7, some others better on the MOXF, but nothing like the SN ones!!

At least for me...

Cheers,
PauloF
User avatar
PauloF
 
Posts: 4079
Joined: 02:35, 16 January 2006
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Re: Piano sounds

Postby psionic311 » 05:52, 4 September 2016

Thanks for the greetings, Paulo =)

I spent weeks trying to decide between getting a MOXF6 or a FA06. The accessibility to a history of soundsets were the major draw for each. Unfortunately, the no aftertouch kept me from getting either. I figured I'd regret getting the FA-06 and not having all the sounds of the Integra, and I'm glad I went full on.

It makes a great compliment to my Kronos combinations, allowing me to initially re-create my Korg combis channel for channel on the Integra. I'm finding the Roland sound choices quite adequate and often better.

This gives me redundancy so I can just bring the Integra and a MIDI controller when I don't need the whole Kronos. When I do link both together, I've got full-sounding combi's with plenty of polyphony. The Integra has plenty of good sounds and is really intuitive to get running full speed in no time.
psionic311
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 00:37, 21 August 2016

Re: Piano sounds

Postby PauloF » 16:53, 5 September 2016

psionic311 wrote:Thanks for the greetings, Paulo =)

I spent weeks trying to decide between getting a MOXF6 or a FA06. The accessibility to a history of soundsets were the major draw for each. Unfortunately, the no aftertouch kept me from getting either. I figured I'd regret getting the FA-06 and not having all the sounds of the Integra, and I'm glad I went full on.

It makes a great compliment to my Kronos combinations, allowing me to initially re-create my Korg combis channel for channel on the Integra. I'm finding the Roland sound choices quite adequate and often better.

This gives me redundancy so I can just bring the Integra and a MIDI controller when I don't need the whole Kronos. When I do link both together, I've got full-sounding combi's with plenty of polyphony. The Integra has plenty of good sounds and is really intuitive to get running full speed in no time.


Happy that you found a good match using both the Kronos and the integra!
User avatar
PauloF
 
Posts: 4079
Joined: 02:35, 16 January 2006
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Re: Piano sounds

Postby MatroSwe » 08:03, 30 December 2016

I own Integra-7, Montage and MOXF (Motif XF engine released mid 2010) and my $0.02 regarding Pianos:
- Remove the effects completely and tweak the Supernatural settings and the Roland pianos sounds more 'real' hands down.
- It is evident that the effects and DA of the Montage is superior. I would rate the MOXF effects as better than the Integra-7 too.
- The programming/sampling of the new pianos in the Montage makes them stand out from the Motif.

What do I choose to use? It depends on the song (genre, sound, etc etc). But the MOXF have started to collect dust...

PS. rb293, I do think that the combination of the Montage (including the FM-X engine) and Integra-7 is a perfect fit. They really complement each other. DS.
MatroSwe
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 15:19, 29 December 2016

Re: Piano sounds

Postby PauloF » 14:47, 10 February 2017

MatroSwe wrote:I own Integra-7, Montage and MOXF (Motif XF engine released mid 2010) and my $0.02 regarding Pianos:
- Remove the effects completely and tweak the Supernatural settings and the Roland pianos sounds more 'real' hands down.
- It is evident that the effects and DA of the Montage is superior. I would rate the MOXF effects as better than the Integra-7 too.
- The programming/sampling of the new pianos in the Montage makes them stand out from the Motif.

What do I choose to use? It depends on the song (genre, sound, etc etc). But the MOXF have started to collect dust...

PS. rb293, I do think that the combination of the Montage (including the FM-X engine) and Integra-7 is a perfect fit. They really complement each other. DS.


This is one of the many reasons that caused me to decide for selling the MOXF!!!
User avatar
PauloF
 
Posts: 4079
Joined: 02:35, 16 January 2006
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Re: Piano sounds

Postby melvinhare » 23:02, 10 February 2017

Hi

I've been triggering an Integra-7 from a Kurzweil PC2 and was wondering why the Integra-7 pianos didn't sound quite right until I happened to change the velocity curve in the PC2 setup to Cosine which opened up a new set of expressions and made the Pianos and ePianos "talk".

Try your curves on the Montage and see what happens.

M
melvinhare
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 15:48, 15 November 2013

Re: Piano sounds

Postby Dorrusvdv » 19:43, 26 February 2017

I also bought a Integra 7 to and think the acoustic pianos are really bad sounding, a big disapointmant to my also
The sound is oke, but they have no sustain?
Holding key's The notes fade away is just seconds, a real piano doesn't have such a short tone sustain.
I really don't understand why I didn't hear about this on the internet before?
I love a lot of the integra sounds, but the grand piano's are unusable to me, Am I doing something wrong perhaps?
Dorrusvdv
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 19:36, 26 February 2017

Re: Piano sounds

Postby lol » 12:44, 27 February 2017

Have you played a digital piano before? All digital pianos have this same short decaying pianos. The Integra-7 is on the better side of this digital pianos world. On the other hand, it has real piano features in the behavior of the piano itself.

You could try changing the velocity curve, maybe your keyboard doesn't really hit the sweet spot of the Integra-7 pianos.

What the Integra-7 SuperNatural pianos lack though, is dedicated damper resonance. It means there is no difference in sound holding with or without the pedal. It sounds a little dry, but this aspect doesn't matter in a mix, and it saves polyphony voices for the rest of the studio set. But that alone is not a deal breaker, most of the time in digital pianos the damper resonance is just a special reverb or an overly exaggerated and fake sounding synth pad. I'm a jazz pianist and I use the Integra-7 as my everyday work tool, and I believe for this use the lack of damper resonance is even an advantage : if I want it to sound good, I have to play good, the sound cannot do it for me, and I cannot rely on the shimmering of the damper reverb to improve my style.

The PCM pianos in the Integra-7 on the other hand can be fully edited, including the decay length. They have a more "real sampled" raw sound by themselves, but they don't have the refinements of the SuperNatural behavior modeling. They do not have damper res either, but if that's what you want, they can be tailored to sound much longer decaying.

To me, being used to acoustic piano playing (I actually play the Integra-7 through a silent real acoustic piano keyboard), despite the lack of damper resonance, the Integra-7 is one of the best digital piano experience I've ever had, and I play it several hours almost everyday for 3 years, its main force is I never get bored with it. But the first day I played it I felt disappointed I remember, I was coming from a GEM RP-X expander and many VSTi sampled pianos. 3 years later, I barely ever use sampled pianos once in a while, and sold the RP-X long ago. Of course the best sampled pianos sound better, but I end up getting bored with each of them. With the Integra-7, everyday, the same interest in digging into these sounds (and I keep the PCM lush patches I made for the special occasions, because I don't want to get bored with them)

So try to adapt the velocity to your keyboard, and try and see if it grows on you. If you ever preferred Yamaha digital piano sounds and don't really get it about piano behavior, and if you are not very familiar with acoustic piano in the first place, maybe the Integra-7 pianos are not for you. Pianos and digital pianos are subjective tastes (let's not start a war here), you have to find the one you're able to work with day after day without feeling the need to look elsewhere if it's not better.
lol
 
Posts: 83
Joined: 10:04, 9 April 2014

Re: Piano sounds

Postby Dorrusvdv » 20:00, 1 March 2017

Thanx for the answer, and yes, i played digital piano's before.
At this moment I use my Yamaha Motif xs8 piano and my native instruments Grand Piano's witch I prefer over the Integra, so no big issue for me, it' s problably a matter of taste .
Dorrusvdv
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 19:36, 26 February 2017

Re: Piano sounds

Postby lol » 14:57, 2 March 2017

So the Yamaha XS is simple PCM sampled piano, I had it on the Moxf8, liked the S6 sampes much better than the CF3S (the S6 is not on the XS rack though, only on the MOTIF XF and Moxf), it was nice, but sounded quite artificial too. I didn't kept it very long, had fun for some time wikth it, and sold the Moxf8, no regrets at all.

The equivalent sampled pianos on the Integra-7 are in the PCM banks, you can edit their decay there and make them sound as long as you want. Some of them are beautiful piano tones, like I said, they are very enjoyable and pleasant, but for everyday work, the SuperNatural pianos are much better, more neutral, they only sound good when you play good music, like most acoustic pianos. The fact they are neutral help them lasting, they're not the best sounds, but sounds I don't pay attention to, so that I can work the piano playing effectively. With VSTis, some of which are real nice success, problem is, you can tend to rely on the sound, it's beautiful, so you start to believe you play nice. Only problem with that is once you're sitting behind a piano, you can't play anymore, and the sound is not so good.

So the only way to practice and progress effectively, imho, is to find one or a couple of pianos sounds that are good enough to help you come back at it on a daily basis and forget about their sonic nature, so that you can effectively start exercising properly.

Other than that, the Integra-7 pianos are extremely good in music context, they really shine in a mix, they cut through without frequency bumps or phase issues, and as it's not really important you have damper resonance or not in a mix, they are very very useful there. Many other good solo pianos, be it vsti or digital, don't have this ability to mix very well in music context, where they retain their natural acoustic nature without scarifying the dynamics and clarity.

Yamaha pianos in a mix tend to sound unnatural and artificial, and their eq balance suddenly appears very clearly, they are too loud in the low register with aggravated bass, to thin in the high register with no life, and they lack body in between. With the Moxf8, I used to eq them and retouch the multisamples velocity switches greatly in order to compensate for that. The damper sim in the Motif line is just a special reverb, it's not convincing, it simply helps polishing the raw samples that would sound very dry and desperate without it.

In the Integra-7 the samples without damper res still sound natural and real to me. You can also tweak the SN pianos in the Integra with heavy equing and FX, to shape them to sound about the way you want, and you can obtain varieties of piano types from that.

The reverb in the Motif line is better than on the Interga-7, but who does play piano in a church? Most pianos you'll ever play are in a room or a a small club, with very limited reverb, so the Integra-7 reverb is very good at simulating this type of room.

Anyway, you cannot consider the best digital piano or hardware rack will ever be as good as the best VSTi, but it's standalone, does require very small energy to run, doesn't make fan noise, never crashes, and if it has a keyboard, is a real instrument. VSTi you most of the time don't pay for and play on mediocre midi keyboard on the family computer, that doesn't count as real instruments to me.

Last point, the Integra-7 is 5 years old already, in its class, it's still the best offer, and one without real competition. But things evolved in the digital instruments world since then, and if want a better digital piano, you can find a better deal than that indeed nowadays. It's just that, you cannot find a digital piano rack at all, and not even a rack that does very good so many other types of sounds ;)
lol
 
Posts: 83
Joined: 10:04, 9 April 2014


Return to Integra 7

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest