I couldn't find any mention of Wet or Dry in the manuals. I'm wondering how to adjust the wet/dry mix in order to put some distance between the listener and the instrument in the case of reverb.
Certainly I could output the reverb to a separate set of outputs and mix them extremely but do I really have to miss externally to achieve this distant effect?
My XV-5050 has the expected send levels for dry, reverb and chorus.
Adjusting the part level on the Integra also send to adjust the Reverb and Chorus send levels making it impossible to get just the effect at the output.
Integra effects Wet/Dry mix?
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ScottRS101
- Posts: 32
- Joined: 15:55, 16 June 2017
Dry/Wet Reverb mix is possible. Here's how.
I figured out one way to do this but you lose the Chorus block entirely.
- Set the Part Reverb send to 127
- Set the Reverb level to 127
- Set the Part output to an unused analog pair. This is where the normal full dry signal will go and be ignored.
- Set the Chorus to Delay mode and set all delays to 0mS. Also set the Center Level to 0 to avoid collapsing the stereo image.
- Set Chorus Output to MAIN (only) to avoid collapsing stereo image.
- Set the Chorus level to 127
As a 0mS delay, the Chorus unit now becomes a simple Dry feed to the output for any part routed through it. It's almost like somebody at Roland considered this Wet/Dry solution as a 0mS delay is otherwise of little use and many delays don't provide a 0mS setting. :-)
- Now the Part Chorus send level can be adjusted to provide full dry at 127 to full wet at 0. If you really want full dry without reverb you must adjust the Reverb send down to 0 for that part. This can be done for multiple parts in a Studio setup. You lose the main Chorus unit but if you need Chorus you could still get that from the MFX insert for a given Part.
I hope I am missing something and this can be achieved without losing the main Chorus but at least there is a way to do it. The Jupiter 80 doesn't have a dedicated Chorus unit anyhow so the Integra doesn't lose its Jupiter 80 capabilities with this routing trick.
Certainly, routing individual signals to a different output pair and then to an external processor is a more flexible way to achieve this, but when you don't want to hook up multiple boxes and deal with increasing noise, this solution will do.
- Set the Part Reverb send to 127
- Set the Reverb level to 127
- Set the Part output to an unused analog pair. This is where the normal full dry signal will go and be ignored.
- Set the Chorus to Delay mode and set all delays to 0mS. Also set the Center Level to 0 to avoid collapsing the stereo image.
- Set Chorus Output to MAIN (only) to avoid collapsing stereo image.
- Set the Chorus level to 127
As a 0mS delay, the Chorus unit now becomes a simple Dry feed to the output for any part routed through it. It's almost like somebody at Roland considered this Wet/Dry solution as a 0mS delay is otherwise of little use and many delays don't provide a 0mS setting. :-)
- Now the Part Chorus send level can be adjusted to provide full dry at 127 to full wet at 0. If you really want full dry without reverb you must adjust the Reverb send down to 0 for that part. This can be done for multiple parts in a Studio setup. You lose the main Chorus unit but if you need Chorus you could still get that from the MFX insert for a given Part.
I hope I am missing something and this can be achieved without losing the main Chorus but at least there is a way to do it. The Jupiter 80 doesn't have a dedicated Chorus unit anyhow so the Integra doesn't lose its Jupiter 80 capabilities with this routing trick.
Certainly, routing individual signals to a different output pair and then to an external processor is a more flexible way to achieve this, but when you don't want to hook up multiple boxes and deal with increasing noise, this solution will do.
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DavetheWave
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 05:11, 12 October 2018
Re: Integra effects Wet/Dry mix?
ScottRS101.
OK. I believe I now understand what you mean (and have deleted my post asking for further info accordingly).
If I may just double check though.
You are basically saying you cant get 100% wet reverb. Only max reverb PLUS original signal? Is that correct?
Hmmm. yes. Tricky one.
OK. I believe I now understand what you mean (and have deleted my post asking for further info accordingly).
If I may just double check though.
You are basically saying you cant get 100% wet reverb. Only max reverb PLUS original signal? Is that correct?
Hmmm. yes. Tricky one.
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DavetheWave
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 05:11, 12 October 2018
Re: Integra effects Wet/Dry mix?
First off, I am pretty sure there will be nothing but 'workarounds' for this issue. As you clearly note, there is no facility to specify variations of wetness (beyond the implication that a full 'send' would be around 50% wet). That said, I may easily have missed something.
So my alternate workaround suggestion would be as follows:-
Following on from your initial suggestion to send the signal to a different set of outputs, you could then duplicate tone within the Studio Set (assuming you are using 8 or less tones) and assign them to the same midi channel. So your original tones (or whichever way around you do it) would produce only the wet signal if the primary tone is routed to, for example, outputs B and you are monitoring outputs A. You can then adjust the Levels of your duplicated tones for the dry signal, sending these straight top outputs A (and I assume, removing the reverb sends from these duplicates... unless you wish to do otherwise, for effect.
Depending on the number of tones in the sound you are trying to effect, this could range from 'a lot easier' to 'a bit more complex' than your original proposal. The advantages are that you do not lose chorus, and arguably you gain a little more options for effects for that tone than you had originally.
Hope this helps and that I am not completely off track here.
So my alternate workaround suggestion would be as follows:-
Following on from your initial suggestion to send the signal to a different set of outputs, you could then duplicate tone within the Studio Set (assuming you are using 8 or less tones) and assign them to the same midi channel. So your original tones (or whichever way around you do it) would produce only the wet signal if the primary tone is routed to, for example, outputs B and you are monitoring outputs A. You can then adjust the Levels of your duplicated tones for the dry signal, sending these straight top outputs A (and I assume, removing the reverb sends from these duplicates... unless you wish to do otherwise, for effect.
Depending on the number of tones in the sound you are trying to effect, this could range from 'a lot easier' to 'a bit more complex' than your original proposal. The advantages are that you do not lose chorus, and arguably you gain a little more options for effects for that tone than you had originally.
Hope this helps and that I am not completely off track here.
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ScottRS101
- Posts: 32
- Joined: 15:55, 16 June 2017
Re: Integra effects Wet/Dry mix?
No, you absolutely can get 100% wet reverb without any external mixing or processing.
Not getting full wet reverb has been a common complaint with Integra. The point of my suggestion above was to show that You CAN indeed process a Part or multiple parts through the full range of completely DRY to 100% wet using the Chorus routing that I suggested.
The Chorus in 0mS delay mode is the dry signal route for one or many parts with each Part delivered dry to the final mix in proportion to it's Chorus Send amount.
The Reverb Send amount is the wet signal for each part.
The Chorus and Reverb Sends for each part now combine to create a Dry/Wet control allowing for anything between Dry(0%) and 100% wet for each part. This works just as well for a single voice as it does multiple parts with no need to duplicate parts. You simply lose the global Chorus block as an effect because it is now being used as a dry signal route. After setting the Chorus as a 0mS delay it basically just becomes a patchbay missed in the output. Think of it the Chorus block as a straight line in the diagram in page 25 of the manual. Obviously any use of MFX for a part feeds both Reverb and Chorus so it's only truly dry signal if you don't use MFX.
This does require the reverse of proper gain-staging where you should always feed the next stage input just below clipping but mix the final outputs with only as much signal as necessary. In this case the Reverb output is set to 127 or full scale into the final mix and each channel feeding the Reverb is supplied at the mix amount necessary. However, the internal processing of the Integra is extremely clean so I don't think this solution will degrade the signal in any meaningful way.
As noted, using multiple outputs and external mixing you can accomplish a lot more. The whole point of this little routing trick was to come up with a way of getting those "back of the room" Wet Reverb effects that the Integra does not normally allow and doing so IN the box.
Not getting full wet reverb has been a common complaint with Integra. The point of my suggestion above was to show that You CAN indeed process a Part or multiple parts through the full range of completely DRY to 100% wet using the Chorus routing that I suggested.
The Chorus in 0mS delay mode is the dry signal route for one or many parts with each Part delivered dry to the final mix in proportion to it's Chorus Send amount.
The Reverb Send amount is the wet signal for each part.
The Chorus and Reverb Sends for each part now combine to create a Dry/Wet control allowing for anything between Dry(0%) and 100% wet for each part. This works just as well for a single voice as it does multiple parts with no need to duplicate parts. You simply lose the global Chorus block as an effect because it is now being used as a dry signal route. After setting the Chorus as a 0mS delay it basically just becomes a patchbay missed in the output. Think of it the Chorus block as a straight line in the diagram in page 25 of the manual. Obviously any use of MFX for a part feeds both Reverb and Chorus so it's only truly dry signal if you don't use MFX.
This does require the reverse of proper gain-staging where you should always feed the next stage input just below clipping but mix the final outputs with only as much signal as necessary. In this case the Reverb output is set to 127 or full scale into the final mix and each channel feeding the Reverb is supplied at the mix amount necessary. However, the internal processing of the Integra is extremely clean so I don't think this solution will degrade the signal in any meaningful way.
As noted, using multiple outputs and external mixing you can accomplish a lot more. The whole point of this little routing trick was to come up with a way of getting those "back of the room" Wet Reverb effects that the Integra does not normally allow and doing so IN the box.
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DavetheWave
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 05:11, 12 October 2018
Re: Integra effects Wet/Dry mix?
I am not sure you understood my post. I guess it doesn't matter as you are clearly happy with your solution.
I acknowledged your solution/workaround/proposal several times in my post.
Edit: I looked back again and felt perhaps my reference to your use of different output pairs may have led you to misunderstand the part that followed. This is unfortunate, but I made this reference merely to attribute where my inspiration for the idea came from.
Whilst I would refer you back to that explanation with this point in mind, I will try to explain more simply:-
- duplicate any parts for which wet / dry separation is required.
- set the outputs for one part (studio set part level) to an output pair you do not use and to the same midi channel as the other part. If reverb is applied, this will now feed "reverb only" (fully wet) to the original outputs provided that you continue to route the effects outputs to the original output pair.
- the other part is now the "dry" signal (assuming you do not send this to reverb as well), and is also fed to the original output pair.
- your original output pair can now be fed any amount of fully wet or fully dry signal dependent upon the "level" of each part.
I did not mean to demean your own solution and was merely trying to assist by responding to what I thought was a request.
Yes. With your workaround. My assertion that you could not was merely restating the problem that your solution resolved to try and highlight that I understood the problem that you were trying to resolve.ScottRS101 wrote:No, you absolutely can get 100% wet reverb without any external mixing or processing.
I acknowledged your solution/workaround/proposal several times in my post.
A fair point. Though I would still suggest you at least 'try' both to compare. Duplicating parts is a very quick and simple process, as you are merely opening the tone you have already created.ScottRS101 wrote:This works just as well for a single voice as it does multiple parts with no need to duplicate parts.
Whilst I realise my own 'workaround' has it's own limitations (primarily that it only works for tones of up to 8 layers) I am confused why you would want to continue to sacrifice the chorus block when you don't have to. Equally, the above statement seems to imply that my own workaround is not "in the box". This is not the case. Both the fully wet, and fully dry components are routed via the main outputs independently and at whatever percentage required.ScottRS101 wrote:As noted, using multiple outputs and external mixing you can accomplish a lot more. The whole point of this little routing trick was to come up with a way of getting those "back of the room" Wet Reverb effects that the Integra does not normally allow and doing so IN the box.
Edit: I looked back again and felt perhaps my reference to your use of different output pairs may have led you to misunderstand the part that followed. This is unfortunate, but I made this reference merely to attribute where my inspiration for the idea came from.
Whilst I would refer you back to that explanation with this point in mind, I will try to explain more simply:-
- duplicate any parts for which wet / dry separation is required.
- set the outputs for one part (studio set part level) to an output pair you do not use and to the same midi channel as the other part. If reverb is applied, this will now feed "reverb only" (fully wet) to the original outputs provided that you continue to route the effects outputs to the original output pair.
- the other part is now the "dry" signal (assuming you do not send this to reverb as well), and is also fed to the original output pair.
- your original output pair can now be fed any amount of fully wet or fully dry signal dependent upon the "level" of each part.
ScottRS101 wrote:I figured out one way to do this but you lose the Chorus block entirely.
As I initially noted, you now seem happy with your own approach. I merely responded in light of the above from one of your previous posts. I have indeed proposed an "in the box" workaround that does not lose the chorus block.ScottRS101 wrote:I hope I am missing something and this can be achieved without losing the main Chorus but at least there is a way to do it.
I did not mean to demean your own solution and was merely trying to assist by responding to what I thought was a request.
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ScottRS101
- Posts: 32
- Joined: 15:55, 16 June 2017
Re: Integra effects Wet/Dry mix?
Relax, I'm not getting defensive. Certainly hope it doesn't sound that way.
I can see how your duplication solution is in the box but you end up running all your dry signals through the Chorus block with a chorus effect running which for many voice types may not be wanted. So even if the MFX for the voice is turned off, you still end up with processed sound.
Yes, my solution disables the main chorus but it can provide truly dry sound.
I can see how your duplication solution is in the box but you end up running all your dry signals through the Chorus block with a chorus effect running which for many voice types may not be wanted. So even if the MFX for the voice is turned off, you still end up with processed sound.
Yes, my solution disables the main chorus but it can provide truly dry sound.
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DavetheWave
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 05:11, 12 October 2018
Re: Integra effects Wet/Dry mix?
I am not really grasping why you believe this to be the case. Chorus send is entirely optional for the dry (or indeed the wet) signal. Both tones are independent in the same way any 'layered' tones would be.ScottRS101 wrote:but you end up running all your dry signals through the Chorus block with a chorus effect running which for many voice types may not be wanted
That said, I will come back and edit this tomorrow once I have had a chance to verify (it's not really viable for me to boot the Integra up now). To be clear, I am perfectly happy to accept any error I may have made (after all, I cant change what is or is not possible), but in my tests yesterday I was pretty convinced that dry was dry, as I used a saw wave for my tests and monitored the output using an oscilloscope (plug in).
I do understand that Chorus and Reverb are global, but the sends to these effects are independent.
Maybe the "Chorus Output Select" options, will have an impact. I'll stop speculating and recheck this tomorrow.
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ScottRS101
- Posts: 32
- Joined: 15:55, 16 June 2017
Re: Integra effects Wet/Dry mix?
You are correct. I wasn't sitting in front of the Integra and wasn't routing it properly in my head. Indeed, the dry signal is always fed to the selected output at 100% (duh, that's the original problem :-)) so your doubling solution works without processing the dry voice.
The only remaining issue I wonder about is if the doubled voices are not sample-locked, you could end up with some strange phasing (cancellation) when the two voices are mixed at the output. Might not be of any significance as it wouldn't be mixing two dry signals anyhow.
I think I still prefer losing the Chorus block to halving my polyphony and multi-timbrality, but if both the final Reverb and Chorus are necessary for a given setup your solution would be the way to go.
The only remaining issue I wonder about is if the doubled voices are not sample-locked, you could end up with some strange phasing (cancellation) when the two voices are mixed at the output. Might not be of any significance as it wouldn't be mixing two dry signals anyhow.
I think I still prefer losing the Chorus block to halving my polyphony and multi-timbrality, but if both the final Reverb and Chorus are necessary for a given setup your solution would be the way to go.
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DavetheWave
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 05:11, 12 October 2018
Re: Integra effects Wet/Dry mix?
I guess it is possible, though for an effect that is commonly offset anyway it seems unlikely.ScottRS101 wrote:you could end up with some strange phasing (cancellation) when the two voices are mixed at the output. Might not be of any significance as it wouldn't be mixing two dry signals anyhow.
Problems I alluded to up front. Though 'halving' is only true if ALL tones require treatment.ScottRS101 wrote:halving my polyphony and multi-timbrality,
ScottRS101 wrote:I think I still prefer losing the Chorus block
All good.
Enjoy.
Re: Integra effects Wet/Dry mix?
Dry/wet is, as far as I understand, a concept which exists for insert-effects.
So with normal reverb and chorus, you always have the dry-component in the mix.
However, the Integra has a "situation" (also confirmed by Roland Europe) that SuperNatural patches don't get the maximum level of reverb as compared to PCM patches. It's easy to check out: Just pick a SN piano, put full reverb on it, and then pick a PCM piano, apply full reverb and hear the difference. Some will say the PCM patches contain a bit of reverb in their samples. That may be, but that tiny bit of sampled reverb does not justify the huge difference in maximum reverb levels on the patch. The level of maximum reverb on SN sounds is about 50% of the maximum level of reverb on PCM sounds.
Now, Roland Belgium indicated that this is by design and they have no intention of fixing this, because why would you want to have full reverb (like 'wet') on a SN patch. It wouldn't sound "Natural". Obviously, that's a lot of BS. Imagine a piano in a huge hall. When the piano is at the front in the hall and you are behind in the hall, the reverb (wet in the mix) you are hearing is huge. You will probably not hear the piano directly. That effect can NOT be obtained with SN patches in the I7. With maximum level of reverb on SN patches, you'll always -as listener- find yourself next to the piano in the huge hall.
The suggestion to use the chorus block to overcome this intriges me. I will test that tonight. However, in the past this problem bothered me endlessly, so for myself I used this workaround:
- Make a cable connection between output C-D to input L-R
- Select your SN patch, and direct its output to C-D
- Since you can mix input L-R with your patches/parts, you also have reverb and chorus at your disposal for that input. And because it's routed externally, no "Roland design flaws" apply to the amount of reverb. Just crank up the input's reverb to the max, and you get the reverb you need.
Good luck.
So with normal reverb and chorus, you always have the dry-component in the mix.
However, the Integra has a "situation" (also confirmed by Roland Europe) that SuperNatural patches don't get the maximum level of reverb as compared to PCM patches. It's easy to check out: Just pick a SN piano, put full reverb on it, and then pick a PCM piano, apply full reverb and hear the difference. Some will say the PCM patches contain a bit of reverb in their samples. That may be, but that tiny bit of sampled reverb does not justify the huge difference in maximum reverb levels on the patch. The level of maximum reverb on SN sounds is about 50% of the maximum level of reverb on PCM sounds.
Now, Roland Belgium indicated that this is by design and they have no intention of fixing this, because why would you want to have full reverb (like 'wet') on a SN patch. It wouldn't sound "Natural". Obviously, that's a lot of BS. Imagine a piano in a huge hall. When the piano is at the front in the hall and you are behind in the hall, the reverb (wet in the mix) you are hearing is huge. You will probably not hear the piano directly. That effect can NOT be obtained with SN patches in the I7. With maximum level of reverb on SN patches, you'll always -as listener- find yourself next to the piano in the huge hall.
The suggestion to use the chorus block to overcome this intriges me. I will test that tonight. However, in the past this problem bothered me endlessly, so for myself I used this workaround:
- Make a cable connection between output C-D to input L-R
- Select your SN patch, and direct its output to C-D
- Since you can mix input L-R with your patches/parts, you also have reverb and chorus at your disposal for that input. And because it's routed externally, no "Roland design flaws" apply to the amount of reverb. Just crank up the input's reverb to the max, and you get the reverb you need.
Good luck.