New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

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kday
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by kday »

We will see a new synth Workstation from Roland and it will be soon.

Making Workstations are not about trying to compete with VST software.

The big 3 synth companies make Workstation keyboards because they always sell, that's unless they try to sell you rehash, but new innovative workstations always sell. And will always sell until the end of time.

Workstations will sell because live bands, producers, studios, and various others needs keyboards for work, and for play.

No matter how great people think the VST is, it will never ever make the hardware synthesizer, keyboard workstation concept obsolete. Roland, Korg, or Yamaha will never stop making them. What would happen if people stopped buying workstations is that the companies would start competing with the VST and making far better workstations then we have today in order to try to win back their customer base.

The companies can give you the end all, be all greatest synth ever if they wanted to, and it would sell like hot cakes and make huge profits for the company. But if the consumer get that great synth in their hands then they may never need or want to buy another synth from the company and they lose business in the long run. That's why they keep giving you small increments of new technology from their last keyboard to keep you coming back, and keep the business making money.

Roland and the other companies know what they need to do to win back the workstation fan base. Korg and Yamaha already executed their visions and have succeeded and made huge profits from selling the workstation keyboard.

Roland was the only one that failed. Because they basically tried to sell the consumer nothing but a remodeled hardware case in the Fantom G. That was economic suicide for company that knows they need profits to survive. Dollars are scarce, new technology is abundant, if they fail to provide consumers with this new low cost technology then they fail, and then some buyers will think they found their utopia in software. But it's not about software, it's about hardware, and how much new technology they allow into hardware before they think that they're giving the consumer too much to make him satisfied with his current setup.

Roland will debut a new workstation, and I'm almost certain it will be at NAMM 2014. Roland will never stop making workstations, and when something new and exciting comes out, people will buy it, including me. Roland knows they have to bring it this time. They know they can't try to sell us rehash like they did with the Fantom G. So these should be exciting times for those waiting for the next generation of keyboards, because the old generation of basic millions sounds and limited intuitive interfaces are basically over.

The Jupiters were great synthesizers, but their workstation line was in need of a makeover, so I'm assuming the next product is done at the salon.
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Quinnx.
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by Quinnx. »

The way I see it they will probably kill it before it even gets to namm.
I mean.. they will tie it to an Ipad for editing and no pc vst plugin (again)

although i no longer see myself in the market for a workstation (the G is all i need)
Im going to ignore any future on-board sequencer that will just pretend to be a DAW.

Simple extras like 8 outs or more with usb multi channel audio would be a welcome relief
after that i suppose there is not much else to offer than what alread exist on the integra and then of course
sampling.
thats about all i can see.
and they have killed the G from the market so its possible they are try to create a gap for something..
but it will have to be under the 3k dollar mark.
Leh173
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by Leh173 »

kday wrote: Roland was the only one that failed. Because they basically tried to sell the consumer nothing but a remodeled hardware case in the Fantom G.
Can't say I agree with that. If that was all the G is I would have bought an X. But there is quite a bit of advancement from the X, but yes it is still the same Rompler engine. The G just had more amenities. I don't think I could handle the lack of seamless switching and flashcard sample storage on the X, plus each part having a dedicated PFX solves a long standing problem with these boards. The pads are way more advanced. Sure SRX was a bit omission though.

The Motif is pretty much the same thing each time just more of it, though the Flash RAM boards is brilliant. Roland need to do that. Even the Kronos is just an OASYS in a cheap case, with a bit extra.

I hope there is a new one, but honestly the more I have this one, the more I get out it. Program it, and it will reward you.
kday
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by kday »

Well when the Fantom G was first displayed at NAMM that's what a Roland rep told me, it was basically a remodeled Fantom X. If you already owned an X, upgrading would have been a waste of money. The X has flashcard storage and seamless switching too, I think seamless switching might have been improved on the G.

The Motif XF was a big advancement from XS, having Flash Memory was a big thing, plus more sound memory, plus better AD/DA converters, more Arps, etc.

Roland is the only one that seem to not offer any real upgrade incentive, having an X, there would be no reason to spend another $2300 dollars for the G.

I can't say that for upgrading the Motif XS to XF for instant playable Flash Memory , or from Korg Triton to Kronos if I had the money.
Jan_nl
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by Jan_nl »

Wait a minute, before NAMM we still have the traditional sept/oct countdown first, who knows what it will bring?
Now that KORG is doing really well with its analog synths I wonder if Roland will also jump on that bandwagon. I have to admit that I really like those Volcas.
Leh173
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by Leh173 »

kday wrote:Well when the Fantom G was first displayed at NAMM that's what a Roland rep told me, it was basically a remodeled Fantom X. If you already owned an X, upgrading would have been a waste of money. The X has flashcard storage and seamless switching too, I think seamless switching might have been improved on the G.
Sorry I should have been more clear, when I said flashcard storage. The G does not have that is uses USB storage, much faster and more flexible. Seamless switching on the G is way more advanced that the standard "patch remain" function on previous Rolands, as it does it with FX, though I believe a similar result can attained on the X using RPS phrases to switch parts on and off in Performance mode, the G can do this as well.

Weird that the rep said that as there are quite a lot of differences, such as double the waverom, usb audio and midi, mouse, much improved audio quality in the AD/DA converters, extra pedal jack, XLR mic input, 22 FX instead of 5, addition of 8 sliders, much larger screen, completely new sequencer supporting 128 MIDI tracks and 24 audio tracks, ARX expansion. I also realise we lost the solo button, piano mode, MFX structures and SRX slots along the way. There was enough advancement for me to pick a G over the X when I was looking to buy, and I regularly use all those features not found on the X extensively. Still though If had bought a Fantom X in 2005 like I wish I had, I can agree that I may not have found the G enough of a reason to change as it's sounds the the X was really good for its time.
kday wrote: The Motif XF was a big advancement from XS, having Flash Memory was a big thing, plus more sound memory, plus better AD/DA converters, more Arps, etc.

Roland is the only one that seem to not offer any real upgrade incentive, having an X, there would be no reason to spend another $2300 dollars for the G.

I can't say that for upgrading the Motif XS to XF for instant playable Flash Memory , or from Korg Triton to Kronos if I had the money.
So these minor changes are a big advancement? Aren't the major changes on the XF: a much larger waverom, flash cards (optional), better AD/DA's, extra arps and a paintjob? So I can't see how the G is a rehash of the X and the XF is major advancement. Even the XF case is much the same as the XS. And the XS lost the PLG boards from the ES, so are they going forward, or sideways too?

Having said all this, I do agree with the thrust of your argument that 6 years down the track from the G and 10 from the X, it is time for Roland to pull something truely stellar out of the hat, but until they do, I'll continue to enjoy the Fantom G6. Like many X owners when the G came out, they'll have to smash the ball out of the park to get me to upgrade. Like all you guys, i really hope they do.
jabberwocky
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by jabberwocky »

I can imagine that the sounds made on a XS where compatible with the XF ? (from es to xs it was anyway) - I don't see any disavantage from XS to XF... so it looks like they are moving forward.

From X to G there is NO compatibility , ?? for a live player making all sounds, layers, patterns etc ... it's quit a hard job. Also from X to G there are some disadvantages which are discussed enough... not so forward.

I only need hardware support from Roland. , I don't think I can trust this compagny again and buy something they even can't support software wise.
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Quinnx.
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by Quinnx. »

Yeah I lost faith along time ago.
And people always put too much faith in the next firmware update.
Its never a given that there is going to be one or that it will eventually fix the shortcomings.
for professional musicians.. time is money and cant be waiting around for months/years for what more likely not going to be fixed if you even get an update...
Case in point.. Fantom X, I have had many a bug report to roland over the years regarding it which never go fixed one in particular was the rps bug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JXMQN-PWlg

Which when i investigate and i reported that its cause by the fantom not recording whats played
but instead it copy's the data from rps phrases to the sequencer so regardless of performance
how it was originally created in the phrase will always be what is recorded to the fantom sequencer..
However and this is just to prove the theory.. if you capture the same performance with pc sequencer it will
playback exactly what was performed.
This means there are 2 things going on here..

1 midi performance is being transmitted as played live in video
2 fantom is not listening to the midi but instead copying exact data from phrase.

but anyhoww..
it was never fixed.
Leh173
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by Leh173 »

jabberwocky wrote:I can imagine that the sounds made on a XS where compatible with the XF ? (from es to xs it was anyway) - I don't see any disavantage from XS to XF... so it looks like they are moving forward.

From X to G there is NO compatibility , ?? for a live player making all sounds, layers, patterns etc ... it's quit a hard job. Also from X to G there are some disadvantages which are discussed enough... not so forward.

I only need hardware support from Roland. , I don't think I can trust this compagny again and buy something they even can't support software wise.
Yeah thats a good point the lack of compatibility between the x and g and previous generations of the JV/XV engine is very irritating. At one point they could read each others sys-ex or patches off a card. Yamaha must be doing much better at thats so their customers know if they upgrade they won't be left behind.

And yes software wise Roland need to learn to finish stuff.
Parsifal
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by Parsifal »

jabberwocky wrote:I can imagine that the sounds made on a XS where compatible with the XF ? (from es to xs it was anyway) - I don't see any disavantage from XS to XF... so it looks like they are moving forward.

From X to G there is NO compatibility , ?? for a live player making all sounds, layers, patterns etc ... it's quit a hard job. Also from X to G there are some disadvantages which are discussed enough... not so forward.

I only need hardware support from Roland. , I don't think I can trust this compagny again and buy something they even can't support software wise.
I thought you can load song files which contain all the data you need. Both the X and the G read the SVQ format, isn't it? There you go. You might want to disregard all effect parameters and build them up from scratch, since G has a different FX block than the X. (not 100% sure but I think that G has all the X waveforms, isn't it?)
XF is not really a "new" workstation, is kinda a new iteration of the same one - much like Kronos X to the original Kronos. If you want a better comparison, you may try original Motif > Motif ES, or ES > XS. That would be closer to Fantom X > Fantom G.

If you really want to bash Roland for not supporting their products, you may want to try bashing the unfinished line of ARX cards :) THAT would be the perfect target. Of course the G was a victim by association - many people thought that ARX chips would upgrade the FG to a new status among workstations. So, when ARX failed, G took quite a chunk of that fail. (although it needed no ARX card to function as a full-blown workstation).
jabberwocky
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by jabberwocky »

Parsifal, it is not working - .wav list is different. (also the G lacks stock wav's from the X , + has "best of" SRX (somehow). And ES sounds were compatible with XS.
Parsifal wrote:If you really want to bash Roland

??? No, I don't WANT to bash Roland

ARX was way too expensive for the covererd sounds/natural-behaviour/super-modelling/ in one card
Parsifal
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by Parsifal »

jabberwocky wrote:Parsifal, it is not working - .wav list is different. (also the G lacks stock wav's from the X , + has "best of" SRX (somehow). And ES sounds were compatible with XS.
Parsifal wrote:If you really want to bash Roland

??? No, I don't WANT to bash Roland

ARX was way too expensive for the covererd sounds/natural-behaviour/super-modelling/ in one card
Sorry if I expressed myself wrong, I haven't meant you wanted to, if was a manner of speaking. Put these words into context and you'll understand.

I never said they could have done it in ONE card. But they could have made a split - same as SRX and Integra relationship. But - hey! Maybe NOW is too late. SRX cards went first then Integra came along.
I don't expect Roland to get multiple ARX cards based on splitting the J-80 into smaller chunks. Also people may perceive the FG as an obsolete workstation, no matter what ARX stuff is still going on.

Still, Roland needs something to be done about it. Unless they're out of workstation market, that is.
Leh173
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by Leh173 »

Ah the ARX mystery... Who know's what happened there. I have the three cards and while they are high quality they don't do enough. The brass card stands out, it's brilliant, the drums are good and EP so so, but the drums and EP have too much overlap with whats already in the G. I currently have the drums and brass in mine. It would have been a lot more useful if they had made ARX-02 an AP/EP card duo timbral with the supernatural piano as well as EP. Also they should have released a VK organ card and VA card, maybe even a flash memory and complete SRX card... also only have two slots was a weird one... Pure speculation but I reckon all this was on the drawing board, but then someone worked out they were wasting their time and redirected their energy in the Jupiter project. Probably wise in the long run, but sucks for us. Anyway, the sampler can make up for a lot of these things.

I'm still making sounds everyday with the G that I like. Gotta look at whats right with it, not whats wrong all the time.
jabberwocky
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by jabberwocky »

True, i still make sounds on the g and x i really like. And playing live on stage the fantoms are the best for me. Also, i only have arx03 brass, still i got beter results with progamming my own patches from internal wavs.

Brings me to my first point, compatibility between workstations is something to think about.
Rps patterns, sounds, live and studioset,
kday
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Re: New Roland Synthesizer Workstation Coming at Namm 2014

Post by kday »

Leh173 wrote: double the waverom, usb audio and midi, mouse, much improved audio quality in the AD/DA converters, extra pedal jack, XLR mic input, 22 FX instead of 5, addition of 8 sliders, much larger screen, completely new sequencer supporting 128 MIDI tracks and 24 audio tracks, ARX expansion. I also realise we lost the solo button, piano mode, MFX structures and SRX slots along the way. There was enough advancement for me to pick a G over the X when I was looking to buy,
That's not enough to spend $2300 to upgrade from a Fantom X

That's great to buy from scratch, but not to upgrade, which mean they lost a lot of loyal revenue from repeat buyers.

Yamaha, nor korg suffered that hiccup in lost revenue and sales from trying to rehash the same keyboard over without anything truly innovative as an addition. ARX card slots were not enough when they said they already gave you all the SRX card sounds anyway. Even the Motif XF, which many XS users swear to be a rehash, but with Flash memory still didn't slow down yamaha sales, probably because Flash Memory is a major advancement for a keyboard concept. Roland offered nothing basically in terms of innovation, but more of the same, more FXs, like who cares, 2 ARX boards, like we're supposed to dig that? It's a great and wonderful workstation for new buyers, but nowhere near enough for their core base of buyers the Fantom X users, who they rely on to sustain the workstation sales market.

Leh173 wrote:

So these minor changes are a big advancement? Aren't the major changes on the XF: a much larger waverom, flash cards (optional), better AD/DA's, extra arps and a paintjob? So I can't see how the G is a rehash of the X and the XF is major advancement. Even the XF case is much the same as the XS. And the XS lost the PLG boards from the ES, so are they going forward, or sideways too?

Having said all this, I do agree with the thrust of your argument that 6 years down the track from the G and 10 from the X, it is time for Roland to pull something truely stellar out of the hat, but until they do, I'll continue to enjoy the Fantom G6. Like many X owners when the G came out, they'll have to smash the ball out of the park to get me to upgrade. Like all you guys, i really hope they do.
Motif XF was a major advancement, going from No Flash Memory to having Flash Memory is unbeatable!

Korg Kronos was was a major advancement having multiple synth engines and SSD onboard is also unbeatable.

Roland has to come out swinging to compete, they can't risk another lackluster or dismo synth sales year.

That's why Roland is taking a long time, because they have to redesign a new interface, design these new features, new sound cards that will be available for the next synth, new software, new synth engines, Flash Memory or SSD options, etc. They know what they have to come with, or they know if they don't, then their synth department may be looking to have to go out of business.

Yamaha and Korg are on their momentum roll, they've succeeded in retaining or regaining their loyal fan base, so the pressure is much lower than what Roland has to endure. But Roland should succeed, unless they try to offer a rehash of the G with just more sound cards and not too much of anything else that's truly innovative. They need either Flash Memory, or onboard SSD to compete with where Yamaha and Korg are at or where they are heading in the synthesizer design department at the moment.
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