FA Editor
-
- Posts: 699
- Joined: 18:01, 19 April 2014
- Location: Germany
Re: FA Editor
Today I started with Ctrlr to see how this program could be a way for the editor. It is very hard stuff with this tool. Not well documented and therefore has a lot of traps to fall in. Misunderstand of this tool and some bugs made a hard work to get a first impression how it works and if I will be able to cope with this mystery of XML tags and programming environment.
It took me hours to create a first test panel, currently not midi data enabled. I will continue to learn and make hopefully steps in the right way with Ctrlr.
First results see attached. The panel-file (see attachment next posting) should be loaded into Ctrlr. At the moment only the knob works.
After this learning curve, a principle structure of the required parameter must be found, to have all parameter on one screen. Would be great if we could collaborate for this, and even for a practical screen layout like where to have the knobs, combos, sliders etc.
It took me hours to create a first test panel, currently not midi data enabled. I will continue to learn and make hopefully steps in the right way with Ctrlr.
First results see attached. The panel-file (see attachment next posting) should be loaded into Ctrlr. At the moment only the knob works.
After this learning curve, a principle structure of the required parameter must be found, to have all parameter on one screen. Would be great if we could collaborate for this, and even for a practical screen layout like where to have the knobs, combos, sliders etc.
- Attachments
-
- CTRLR First Test
- FA_CTRLR_test1.png (257.43 KiB) Viewed 3423 times
-
- Posts: 699
- Joined: 18:01, 19 April 2014
- Location: Germany
Re: FA Editor
CTRLR Test file
- Attachments
-
- FA_Test_1_2048_RedBaron_2015-02-02_22-47.bpanelz.zip
- CTRLR panel file
- (361.79 KiB) Downloaded 162 times
-
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10:11, 5 December 2014
Re: FA Editor
I wonder if it is worth looking at some of the existing Ctrlr panels for other Roland instruments, theory being that Roland may have kept the same Sysex commands and we could potentially use the same dials...
Work has already been done on:
Roland JX8P
Roland JD-VST
Roland JP-8080
Roland M-VS1
Roland XP-30
Roland MKS-80
Roland VM-3100
Does anyone know which of the above would be the closest relative of the FA06/08, I guess we are talking internally here...
I have taken a series of photos of the first 9 editing panels as presented on the LCD display, I was hoping the manual had these but it was pretty high level:
Work has already been done on:
Roland JX8P
Roland JD-VST
Roland JP-8080
Roland M-VS1
Roland XP-30
Roland MKS-80
Roland VM-3100
Does anyone know which of the above would be the closest relative of the FA06/08, I guess we are talking internally here...
I have taken a series of photos of the first 9 editing panels as presented on the LCD display, I was hoping the manual had these but it was pretty high level:
-
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10:11, 5 December 2014
Re: FA Editor
Page 6 of the Roland Midi manual says : Data Set 1 (basically this tells us how to transmit SysEx data)
So the SysEx formula will be something like this format:
F0H 41H, dev, 00H, 00H, 77H, 12H, aaH, bbH, ccH, ddH, <data>, checksum, F7H
So we know the SysEx length = 14
To set the Cutoff value to 61 to an FA06/08 on default device ID of 10 you would transmit:
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 <4 pairs of data address for Cutoff control> <data itself 61=3D> <checksum> F7
What I haven't figured out is how to translate the parameter addresses in the midi manual to the 4 pairs of address data, the manual does however show how to work out the checksum on page 36.
...update ok so the checksum bit is quite easy as the Ctrlr programmer has coded it so it would be
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 <4 pairs of data address for Cutoff control> XX Z5 F7
where XX = the input from the dial and Z5 = Roland checksum for the last 5 bytes
...update I cheated and used a midi monitor to read the SysEx messages, the formula was basically correct though.
Try this, you should have the Cutoff dial working:
So the SysEx formula will be something like this format:
F0H 41H, dev, 00H, 00H, 77H, 12H, aaH, bbH, ccH, ddH, <data>, checksum, F7H
So we know the SysEx length = 14
To set the Cutoff value to 61 to an FA06/08 on default device ID of 10 you would transmit:
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 <4 pairs of data address for Cutoff control> <data itself 61=3D> <checksum> F7
What I haven't figured out is how to translate the parameter addresses in the midi manual to the 4 pairs of address data, the manual does however show how to work out the checksum on page 36.
...update ok so the checksum bit is quite easy as the Ctrlr programmer has coded it so it would be
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 <4 pairs of data address for Cutoff control> XX Z5 F7
where XX = the input from the dial and Z5 = Roland checksum for the last 5 bytes
...update I cheated and used a midi monitor to read the SysEx messages, the formula was basically correct though.
Try this, you should have the Cutoff dial working:
Re: FA Editor
Interesting!
I am a complete sysex noob, but I know my way in Knobman, so if I can be of help in making some knobs, sliders etc....
I am a complete sysex noob, but I know my way in Knobman, so if I can be of help in making some knobs, sliders etc....
-
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10:11, 5 December 2014
Re: FA Editor
I think I've got a basic grasp of SysEx now, even if I don't fully understand the logic I've worked out enough to get the first dial working.
What we need to figure out is the design of the Ctrlr panel i.e. what knobs, sliders, buttons etc and how to present it. To my mind we have two fundamental choices either:
1. Try to replicate the GUI layout as Roland has presented it in the menu's we see on the LCD display i.e. we have sections in the panel that follow the OSC, Pitch, Filter, Amp, LFO, LFO-Mod, Misc (as you can see from the photos in the attachments a few posts above)
or
2. We try to re-organise the knobs, sliders, buttons etc in a way that better suites Synth programming e.g. follow the layout of say Syntorials Primer VST (which is a popular teaching aid)
I know a bit about computers, I am a total novice at both Synth programming and Synths in general just a strong desire program my own tones.
If someone can work out what a good panel design might look like, Bennyseven can perhaps have a go at building the panel then I can take a look at the SysEx formula's to make it work. If anyone else wants to help you can try testing the panels as they are done & feedback or read the documentation on the FA06/08 + Ctrlr + SysEx midi format for Roland and chip in. Preferably before Yamaha figures out what we are doing and tries to buy the rights for Ctrlr :-)
What we need to figure out is the design of the Ctrlr panel i.e. what knobs, sliders, buttons etc and how to present it. To my mind we have two fundamental choices either:
1. Try to replicate the GUI layout as Roland has presented it in the menu's we see on the LCD display i.e. we have sections in the panel that follow the OSC, Pitch, Filter, Amp, LFO, LFO-Mod, Misc (as you can see from the photos in the attachments a few posts above)
or
2. We try to re-organise the knobs, sliders, buttons etc in a way that better suites Synth programming e.g. follow the layout of say Syntorials Primer VST (which is a popular teaching aid)
I know a bit about computers, I am a total novice at both Synth programming and Synths in general just a strong desire program my own tones.
If someone can work out what a good panel design might look like, Bennyseven can perhaps have a go at building the panel then I can take a look at the SysEx formula's to make it work. If anyone else wants to help you can try testing the panels as they are done & feedback or read the documentation on the FA06/08 + Ctrlr + SysEx midi format for Roland and chip in. Preferably before Yamaha figures out what we are doing and tries to buy the rights for Ctrlr :-)
Re: FA Editor
For the SuperNatural synth tones I like the layout of the editor in the Jupiter 80 (same as the JP80/50 and Integra iPad apps).
Maybe this layout with FA style controllers?
Maybe this layout with FA style controllers?
-
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10:11, 5 December 2014
Re: FA Editor
yes indeed a JP80 or Integra 7 editor might be a good place to start
-
- Posts: 699
- Joined: 18:01, 19 April 2014
- Location: Germany
Re: FA Editor
Very good ideas, Sirs.
I don't know the JP80 / I7 editor very much, but I will have a look on it.
If someone has the possibility to use the above editor it would be great to send a screenshot of the relevant pages.
As a matter of fact, Ctrlr has very advanced support for midi and sysex handling (i.e. expressions for most/least significant bits and checksum).
For the sysex contribution I will give a short overview on how to compose the memory address. Will be a separate document.
Cheers,
BennySeven
I don't know the JP80 / I7 editor very much, but I will have a look on it.
If someone has the possibility to use the above editor it would be great to send a screenshot of the relevant pages.
As a matter of fact, Ctrlr has very advanced support for midi and sysex handling (i.e. expressions for most/least significant bits and checksum).
For the sysex contribution I will give a short overview on how to compose the memory address. Will be a separate document.
Cheers,
BennySeven
Re: FA Editor
I will try to work on some knobs and layout ideas in the coming days.
-
- Posts: 699
- Joined: 18:01, 19 April 2014
- Location: Germany
Re: FA Editor
Here is a short introduction to memory address mapping for sysex messages. Hope this helps. Please feel free to ask questions and sorry for the english..
BennySeven
BennySeven
- Attachments
-
- FA_sysex_1.pdf
- Sysex introduction
- (41.11 KiB) Downloaded 195 times
Re: FA Editor
For the iPad app Midi Designer there is a FA editor.
You can see the MIDI messages of all controllers in edit mode.
There is a free version of this app in the Appstore.
http://mididesigner.com/qa/3093/roland- ... nth-editor
You can see the MIDI messages of all controllers in edit mode.
There is a free version of this app in the Appstore.
http://mididesigner.com/qa/3093/roland- ... nth-editor
-
- Posts: 699
- Joined: 18:01, 19 April 2014
- Location: Germany
Re: FA Editor
Yes, this was already mentioned in this Thread (viewtopic.php?f=55&t=48230#p280475.
We were focussing on PC software and VST capability.
We were focussing on PC software and VST capability.
Re: FA Editor
Sorry, must have overlooked that part of the discussion.
The reason I mentioned it is that this can be handy for extracting sysex messages for the editor.
The reason I mentioned it is that this can be handy for extracting sysex messages for the editor.
-
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 10:11, 5 December 2014
Re: FA Editor
I see what you mean, yes one of our clever Clan Forum members has got it working with Midi Designer for iOS. We can ask if he can share the details, it might save time reverse engineering the SysEx commands. As the chap pointed out once you've figured out the first few formulas there is a lot of repetition e.g. the first 6 bytes and last 3 will be pretty much the same throughout:
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 <4 pairs of data address for your control> XX Z5 F7
Personally I like the idea of creating/editing tones on a 24" monitor, I think you'll run out of space on a tablet pretty fast for that purpose or maybe I just have phat-fingers :-)
Thanks for the address explanation Benny, that makes more sense now.
I like how the Jupiter-80 Editor has drawn the sound wave above the sliders to give meaning:
Andy's Midi designer template is arguably more logical wrt to the FA 06/08 as he has followed the structure of the Roland menus you see on the LCD with the benefit of seeing all 3 partial wave setting at once within a given category.
From a tone programming/engineering PoV does it make more sense to see the same settings for all 3 partial waves then skip through the panels for the different options or is it better to see all the options per wave and have to potentially configure it 3 times?
F0 41 10 00 00 77 12 <4 pairs of data address for your control> XX Z5 F7
Personally I like the idea of creating/editing tones on a 24" monitor, I think you'll run out of space on a tablet pretty fast for that purpose or maybe I just have phat-fingers :-)
Thanks for the address explanation Benny, that makes more sense now.
I like how the Jupiter-80 Editor has drawn the sound wave above the sliders to give meaning:
Andy's Midi designer template is arguably more logical wrt to the FA 06/08 as he has followed the structure of the Roland menus you see on the LCD with the benefit of seeing all 3 partial wave setting at once within a given category.
From a tone programming/engineering PoV does it make more sense to see the same settings for all 3 partial waves then skip through the panels for the different options or is it better to see all the options per wave and have to potentially configure it 3 times?