Am I the only one who is so impressed by the SN Synth engine

[Mork]

I realize i'm not the average poster on this forum as I typically only own one digital synth at a time as a controller and "jack of all trades" synth with my analog synth set up. My genuine question to users is how is everyone not as impressed with the SN Synth engine as I am? I think this makes the fa series a workstation like no other. Ive owned just about every series of workstation in the past and haven't found one that sounds as good his for just keyboard sounds (pianos, eps, organs, synths). I keep hearing how many who post here like the fantom g8 so much and motifs so much..just curious if there are any others out there who think this is a break-through to have a workstation with such a powerful and good sounding va?

[DaMaul]

I too am a bit puzzled why Roland aren't making a bigger deal of the Supernatural Synth engine!! It was one of the key reasons why I bought the FA-08. I wasn't aware of any other workstation keyboard with a virtual analogue synth engine on board other than the Korg Kronos. I think it's a killer feature at this price, and as far as I know the korg krome and Yamaha moxf are 100% sample based (correct if I'm wrong??).

I've only had my FA-08 for a few days but I'm well impressed by the quality of the SN Synth so far. It's a bit fiddly programming new sounds but I reckon I'll get the hang of it after a bit more practice! If I was Yamaha I'd be making plans to stick the synth engine of the AN1X into their next workstation...

[Flavorkeys]

The AN1X is a fantastic VA synth. The AN expansion board in the Motif ES had these capabilities but of course, not the knobs and buttons ( it had a software editor)

I own a Korg M3 and have the Radias expansion installed and it is a great VA synth.

I now own a FA-08 and am getting acquainted w/ the synth engine.

Question: is the VA synth engine different from the VR-09 synth? Does the VR-09 have supernatural synth programs or is this new to the FA series?

[DaMaul]

Yeah I believe the Supernatural Synth engine is also found
in the V-Combo VR-09, Jupiter 80/50 and of course the Integra 7. I read somewhere that there were more filter options in the Jupiter 80 implementation

[magikroom]

Isn't the SN engine still based on samples though? Then uses modeled behavior on the samples, including the "virtual analog"

[PauloF]

Isn't the SN engine still based on samples though? Then uses modeled behavior on the samples, including the "virtual analog"

what's the problem in SN-A being sample based?
What matters is the end result..the sound, not the technology to achieve it (it is very advanced in the case of BM, BTW)

[lol]

You can understand what virtual analog exactly means by comparison to analog : in an analog synth, the raw waveform which give the color to the tone, triangular, sinusoidal, square, etc, is produced by an electronic (voltage controlled or digitally controlled) oscillator. This sound is then electronically modulated by LFOs, filters&resonances, envoloppe generators, amplitude generators, etc.

In a virtual analog synth, the waveform is not produced by an oscillator, it is given by a wavetable of PCM samples, but then the modulations are produced by the synth in real time via the algorithms offered by the synths calculation capabilities, like in your daw computer.

The advantage of virtual analog is that the wavetable can reproduce much more different waveforms than the average analog synth, because they are pre-recorded and limited only by the memory of the synth, (whereas the limitation comes from the electronic circuits in an analog synth, limited by physical space ; this is why big analog synths can take entire rooms of physical space), and also you can have these waveforms pure of any noise and artefacts. As the modulation is calculated in real time, the sound produced is not dead like in a pure rompler (where you only have access to a limited array of parameters, mostly sound envelopes and filter w/wo resonance, but no lfos, enveloppe followers, amplitude envelopes, etc.), you can interact vividly with the parameters and create complex evolving structures.

So unless you have room and desire for a big modular system, virtual analog is a good way to get to the sound synthesis after all.

EDIT : So it appears the question is vastly debated and not so simple, see f.e. http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=37077&sid=06c6b5465acdb1de6be65fbd2b279543

Also I checked on the Integra, each of the 3 oscillators of the supernatural synth only has the few basic waveforms to choose from (each with 3 variations), which must be some sort of emulations of real oscillators (see the debate in the tread mentioned), and also a PCM waveform category in which you can pick any of the 450 PCM sounds as an oscillation source. I didn't pay attention to it first, but so it's not only PCM based as to the waveform source, and it's even better that way. And then you also have the PCM synth engine which consists of thousands (internal+12 SRX) of available waveforms to modulate 4 PCM stereo samples as an oscillation source. I assume the FA series use the same technology even if the waveform count is smaller.

[Synthtron]

Honestly, I am not overly impressed with the SN synth engine. I believe the SN synth engine is the same as the Gaia (which I owned but sold) which only lacks the large number of PCM waveforms compared the the Jupiters. Also the Gaia is not marketed as having a SN synth engine. Now I do not own an FA instrument, yet, but I do have a Jupiter-80 and 50 so I am not bashing the technology but I also have a Juno-60, Juno-106, and a JX-3p and I can say the SN synth engine can produce some of the basic sounds of those instruments but falls short on synthesizing the sound these classics are known to create and I have had experience in programming and playing them. For me, the SN synth engine falls short in reproducing a Voltage controlled filter and its behavior, and also PWM. I wish the behavior modeling on the SN synth engine was more obvious or substantial because i do not hear it and the PWM has awful digital artifacts/aliasing or something going on in it's sound. I will note the PWM is more convincing in other Roland VA synths like the V-Synth, SH-201 and JP-8000. Let me be clear though, I did not buy the Jupiter-80 or 50 for their SN synth engines to recreate my old vintage synths. I got them to create their OWN sound. They are very versatile though week in a few areas as far as being a VA synth as noted with the filter and PWM. The layering possibilities on the Jupiters are great as well. These Jupiters also make great live performance synths where little hands on programming is required during a performance just playing. The terms Roland have chosen, like Supernatural Synth engine, are for marketing purposes so let your ears be the judge. Perhaps Roland have improved the SN Synth engine in the FAs over the Jupiters? I think probably not. I am though really excited to hear the ACB technology on the System-1 coming out. It will be interesting to see if it is successful in recreating faithful reproductions of classic analog synths and their organic sound which is due to their discrete circuits physical properties, characteristics and behavior. I am hoping it will be a huge step forward in Roland for creating a synthesizer that has that analog sound and feel that I love and many others do. Roland have had a lot of complaints for not doing analog. Personally I do not care if it is digital as long as it sounds good!

[lol]

They are very versatile though week in a few areas as far as being a VA synth as noted with the filter and PWM.

Here on the Integra I count 7 filter modes each at -12 or -24dB for the SN synth and 6 of the same for the PCM synth engine, all envelope variables, and sweeping perfectly without artefact, and in a complete background silence @96kHz.

But you also have to think about one major side effect of the digital nature of these synths engines, they are limited to the 0dB constraint of the D/A output, and you could make them cry like hell but it'd max out the output and you'd get a digital distortion very soon, when you have no such thing on an analog Juno for instance (I have one of these too) where you just max out the input of the mixer in such cases instead of blowing the output, but it's the other side of the same coin if you think about it. But you won't get the noise either on this digital synth, so the sound might feel thinner anyway given this psychoacoustic element of a 0 background noise. To compensate there's a sort of detuning variable "analog feel" parameter that can help getting to the point. So maybe the limit is the quality of the D/A device attached to the synth, but is there a digital output on the FA and Jupiter series as well as on the Integra? If the case you could even use a (better?) third party converter to gain dynamics? We're refining here, it sounds great as is!

I think what you get from this va is a great capability of reproducing what you would obtain post fader in a mixer, and this due to the D/A and its 0dB limit, which is different indeed from the raw analog output of a synth that could kill your speakers or your ears. The modulation is very smooth too, just dial in a slow lfo to play with the filter over time, you have a nice evolving pad almost instantly, very inspiring imo.

An when you think of the potential of these SN synth machines, given the multitimbrality, can you imagine the complexity of say an 8x3 oscillators playing on the same midi channel, each with a distinct waveform, with envelopes, amp, filters and lfo variables? I cannot imagine, I'd have to try it, and when you realise you could still get a polyphony of a full hand on such a monster patch, you have to concede the possibilities are not narrow to say the least!

Time to get back to it, let's try that monster patch!

[Synthtron]

What about 16 X 4 like on the Fantom X, Gs, juno-G, Di, XV-5080 etc. ?

[lol]

Oh yeah, no problem, and you know all about it right?, since you've got a Jupiter 50 and 80!

...

lol

[Synthtron]

It's not just that but I am familiar with the SN Synth Engine as well as Roland's past synth engines because I use them. I am curious though on The FA and Intgera because I do not own those two yet they share the same SN engine as the Jupiters. I was wondering how the tones work from the past Roland SRX/JV expansions that are loaded in the Integra. Do they utilize Roland's past 4 tones to a patch structure. Are you familiar with the JD-990? I do not own that but it is pretty powerful synth engine from what I understand compared to the JD-800 which I do own. All of this before "VA" Synth was around as a marketing term.

[mixalis]

Well to be honest i am impressed with the FA overall but not with the synthesis engine...
Its too limited in terms of modulation options ..All i can see as destinations to the source is filter frequency amp envelope ,Panning and something more i dont remember right now..

Is it me losing something here, or its just like that?

[mixalis]

Does the integra 7 has the same synthesis options with the Fa? I dont believe that there is basically no mod matrix and no others envelopes ...

From the other side the effects are so good that fill in the gap somehow

[PauloF]

Does the integra 7 has the same synthesis options with the Fa? I dont believe that there is basically no mod matrix and no others envelopes ...

From the other side the effects are so good that fill in the gap somehow

The FA engine is based on the integra-7, so they are "similar"

On the integra, the Matrix Modulation is present in 3 main areas:

At the System Level:
- System Control Source1,2,3 and 4
(can be -> Off, CC01-CC95, Pitch Bend, Aftertouch, SYS Ctrl1, SYS Ctrl2, SYS Ctrl3, SYS Ctrl4)
- System Control Source (Can be -> SYSTEM or STUDIO SET)

At the SuperNatural Tone (Part) Level:
MFX Control1, 2, 3 and 4
- Source1-4
(can be -> Off, CC01-CC95, Pitch Bend, Aftertouch, SYS Ctrl1, SYS Ctrl2, SYS Ctrl3, SYS Ctrl4)
- Destination1-4
(Can be -> Any MIDI controllable MFX parameter - depends on the MFX effect chosen)
- Sens1-4
(can be-> -63 to +63)

At the PCM Waveform Level (each of the 4x available Waveforms):
MTRX Control1, 2, 3 and 4
- Source1-4
(can be -> Off, CC01-CC95, Pitch Bend, Aftertouch, SYS Ctrl1, SYS Ctrl2, SYS Ctrl3, SYS Ctrl4, Velocity, Key Follow, Tempo, LFO1, LFO2, Pitch Envelope, TVF Envelope, TVA Envelope)
- Destination1-4
(Can be -> Pitch, Cutoff, Resonance, Level, Pan, Output Level, Chorus Send, Reverb Send, LFO1 Pitch Depth, LFO2 Pitch Depth, LFO1 TVF Depth, LFO2 TVF Depth, LFO1 TVA Depth, LFO2 TVA Depth, LFO1 Pan Depth, LFO2 Pan Depth, LFO1 Rate, LFO2 Rate, Pitch Envelope A-Time, Pitch Envelope D-Time, Pitch Envelope R-Time, TVF Envelope A-Time, TVF Envelope D-Time, TVF Envelope R-Time, TVA Envelope A-Time, TVA Envelope D-Time, TVA Envelope R-Time, PMT, FXM Depth)
Sens1-4
(can be-> -63 to +63)

MFX Control1, 2, 3 and 4
Source1-4
(can be -> Off, CC01-CC95, Pitch Bend, Aftertouch, SYS Ctrl1, SYS Ctrl2, SYS Ctrl3, SYS Ctrl4)
Destination1-4
(Can be -> Any MIDI controllable MFX parameter - depends on the MFX effect chosen)
Sens1-4
(can be-> -63 to +63)

There are PLENTY of Matrix Modulation options ;-)