Only 20 User Rhythm Groups - REALLY???

[miden]

I am creating a separate thread for this as I feel it is important and perhaps, just perhaps, someone from Roland may see it.

It is ridiculous to only allow 20 user rhythm groups. As referenced in this thread viewtopic.php?f=55&t=48165&start=15

I could fill 20 for just Funk, let alone any other genre. They did not even allow for streaming/loading MIDI patterns from the SD card...

IMO, this needs a serious rethink. Even reversing the ratio, IE 64 User groups and 20 Factory groups, or even allow us to alos use the factory slots for our own...that would be an improvement.

What do others think?

[fuxoft]

I don't mean to sound confrontational but I really don't understand why you'd need more than one rhythm preset when working on (creating!) a single song. Can you elaborate on what you are trying to do?

[miden]

I don't think you get it...I am NOT creating songs!

[miden]

Look, all I want to do is have a range of rhythm patterns to use when I play at gigs...As I wrote in the other thread, I play basslines and keys, so all I need is sets of patterns with some variations. These can be save with a Studio Setup and these in turn cna be recalled via external MIDI commands.

Simple really :) Roland have really dropped the ball, but that is no surprise considering what they have left off/removed from keyboards over the past decade

[fuxoft]

Then, I am afraid, FA is not the right synth for you. You want auto-accompaniment keyboard, which FA is not.

[miden]

No you still do not get it , no offence. I am NOT after an auto accomp keyboard!! Jeez I have owned enough of them!

And you seem to not be able to get away from this whole "song" concept. Look the ability to do this (simply use rhythm groups to use as a basic backing drum track) is in the FA, it is just the restriction of just 20 groups is really quite silly. And they give us 64 of what someone else thinks is a good pattern! We cannot even edit them!

I think this should be addressed in an update to at least allow the saving/loading of Rhythm Groups in a "streaming" fashion from the SD card and then allow these to be saved with a Studio Setup. It's nto rocket science!

[fuxoft]

And you seem to not be able to get away from this whole "song" concept. Look the ability to do this (simply use rhythm groups to use as a basic backing drum track) is in the FA, it is just the restriction of just 20 groups is really quite silly.

I'm afraid the rhythm groups are NOT intended to be used as a "basic backing drum track". If they were, then I'd expect a whole lot of other features that FA does not have...

You are saying that I should "get away from the whole SONG concept". Why do you think the FA has 999 user song presets and only 20 user rhythm presets? That's not a coincidence.

If you describe exactly what you want to do (e.g. between how many different rhythms you want to switch in real time), maybe I can tell you how to do it...

[miden]

I know how to do this already. And if they were not meant to be used as a basic backing track then why did Roland allocate Intro, Vs 1, fill 1, Vs 2, fill 2 and the ending tabs and patterns?

If it was to be as you say,m then all Roland had to do was copy the Yamaha Arp system...which has NO pre-determined "sections" (as in intro vs fill etc) just a whole load of arp patterns to use.

IMO, I think Roland DID intend for it to be used as basic backing, they (as is usually the case with modern Roland) did not think it through enough in the final result. So instead of a great live tool, it is some half-assed toy.

From the manual:

Performing with Rhythm Patterns
The FA can sound a rhythm pattern while you perform.
The rhythm pattern plays the tone of part 10 of the studio set.
MEMO
Rhythm pattern settings are saved in the studio set.
What is a pattern?
The FA’s rhythm patterns consist of performance data called
“patterns.”
In a band, the drummer typically repeats fixed sequences that
are one or two measures long. On the FA, each of these basic
sequences of performance data is called a “pattern.”
The FA contains preset patterns that are suitable for intro, verse, fill,
and ending. The pattern name indicates the type of pattern.
Pattern Explanation
Intro
Performance pattern suitable for the intro
(introduction).
Verse 1, 2
The main performance patterns. 1 is the basic
pattern, and 2 is a more advanced form of 1.
Fill-In 1, 2
More elaborate performance patterns typically
inserted between phrases. Choose either 1 or 2
depending on the pattern that will play following
the fill.
Ending Performance pattern suitable for the end of the song.
The FA provides the following types of pattern.
Pattern Explanation
P (preset)
Preset patterns that cannot be rewritten.
Pattern settings that you’ve edited can be saved as a
user pattern.
U (user) Patterns that you save in the FA.
MEMO
You can edit a pattern to create an original user pattern (p. 50).
What is a rhythm group?
A rhythm group is a set containing six rhythm patterns. You can
choose a rhythm pattern for each of Intro, Pattern A–Pattern D, and
Ending, and save your choices as a rhythm group.
Rhythm group Explanation
PRST (preset)
Rhythm groups that cannot be rewritten.
Rhythm group settings that you’ve edited can be
saved as a user group.
USER (user) Rhythm groups that you save in the FA.
What is a drum kit?
The drum sounds played by a pattern are called a “drum kit.”
You can store one drum kit in each studio set.
Selecting/Playing Rhythm Patterns
Here’s how to play rhythm patterns.
Selecting rhythm patterns
1. Press the [RHYTHM PATTERN] button to access the
RHYTHM PATTERN screen .
2. Select a rhythm group and drum kit .
1 . Move the cursor to “RHYTHM GROUP” or “DRUM KIT.”
2 . Use the dial or the [DEC] [INC] buttons to select a rhythm
group or drum kit .
3. Move the cursor to the rhythm pattern, and use the dial or
the [DEC] [INC] buttons to select a rhythm pattern .
MEMO
• If you want to keep the rhythm group that you’ve edited, save
the rhythm group (p. 37).
• Rhythm patterns are shown in the order of P (preset) g U (user).
Playing rhythm patterns
4. Press the [2] (Intro)–[7] (Ending) buttons to select the
rhythm pattern that you want to play .
The [RHYTHM PATTERN] button lights, and the rhythm pattern
plays.
5. To stop, once again press the button that you pressed in
step 4 .
MEMO
If you play a rhythm pattern that’s assigned as Intro, playback
automatically switches to Pattern A when the Intro has finished
playing.
If you play a rhythm pattern that’s assigned as Ending, the
rhythm pattern automatically stops when the Ending has
finished playing.

[miden]

Now all I am saying is that 20 groups to allow the above is ridiculous! And the measly 64 factory groups are really, naff! And no ability to edit either. So we are stuck with someone else's idea of what constitutes a decent rhythm track. Even so 64 is also a ridiculously small number. As I said before it is ONLY midi data, not like it is audio, so space is not an issue.

[fuxoft]

Now all I am saying is that 20 groups to allow the above is ridiculous! And the measly 64 factory groups are really, naff! And no ability to edit either. So we are stuck with someone else's idea of what constitutes a decent rhythm track. Even so 64 is also a ridiculously small number. As I said before it is ONLY midi data, not like it is audio, so space is not an issue.

I cannot imagine the scenario where you'd need more than 20 user rhythm presets AT ONCE. Are you aware that the rhythm groups can be saved to backup file and you can have infinite number of backup files on the SD card? See the manual, pages 14 and 94...

[miden]

Sorry fuxoft, I think we should leave it there...you still don't get the concept. No offence as it can be difficult to illuminate using text. I don't want to use 20 at once...whatever gave you that idea...

Okay one more time....

a single Studio setup - one part is a keyboard, one part is a bass these are played live - then we add ONE user Rhythm group (which is a set of intro, vs, fill 1, vs 2, fill2, ending).

For example, Studio Set 1 is a funk setup, so we need funk drum patterns (using the 6 available "slots" in the Rhythm Group)...Studio Set 2 may be hip hop (jazz) so we need jazz hip hop patterns, Studio Set 3 is perhaps latin so we need Latin drum patterns...are you getting the idea?

So in this way I can call a chart, and then have the appropriate Studio Set load. Now not being a "fixed" song, I can then play whatever part of the chart whenever I want: there is no "fixed arrangement. If I want ot play the tune for ten minutes I can, or repeat a verse 20 times I can.

The FA IS setup to be able to do this, but having just twenty user groups to accomplish this is dumb, imo.

Unless there is some way I can store MORE user groups on the card then really it is a gimmick/toy rather than any serious live play capability.

[fuxoft]

Unless there is some way I can store MORE user groups on the card then really it is a gimmick/toy rather than any serious live play capability.

Yes, I get that. However, you probably still don't get that you can store INFINITE NUMBER of User Rhythm Groups (of 20 presets) on the SD card.

[miden]

Where? The only thing that can be saved is "Songs" there is no folder for saving other than Backups and Songs on the SD card...Not even more Studio Sets.

[miden]

Oh and I think you misunderstand the Rhythm Group... a Rhythm Group is a set of six parts - intro, vs1, fill 1, vs2, fill 2, ending. THAT is a group.

It is not a set of 20 presets.

From the manual :

What is a rhythm group?
A rhythm group is a set containing six rhythm patterns. You can
choose a rhythm pattern for each of Intro, Pattern A–Pattern D, and
Ending, and save your choices as a rhythm group

[fuxoft]

Oh and I think you misunderstand the Rhythm Group... a Rhythm Group is a set of six parts - intro, vs1, fill 1, vs2, fill 2, ending. THAT is a group.

It is not a set of 20 presets.

I understand that. You have 20 user presets. Each consists of six parts. You can save ALL 20 presets (i.e. 120 parts in total) in the backup file. You can have infinite number of backup files. Maybe this is not what you want, for whatever reason, but you can definitely have as many rhythms as you want on the SD card.