Tone release issues during sequencing

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Leif Ericsson
Posts: 6
Joined: 16:56, 9 December 2016

Tone release issues during sequencing

Post by Leif Ericsson »

Hello,

I have kind of a problem while sequencing regarding tone release and cutoff. This seems to have just started after a year and a half with no problems.

When using string patches in sequencing, I will often open up the release so that it takes a while for the strings to die out. While the song is playing either while recording strings or during playback, playing a new chord while the other chord is dying out will cause the release to cutoff completely and makes it sound very unrealistic with an obvious unintentional cutoff. If I turn the song off and attempt the same chord progression, there is no cutoff problem. I have reloaded the song and the problem will not exist until after playing the song (sequence) for a minute or two.

What am I doing wrong? I'm doing more classical types of orchestration so i need the slower release on strings and the cutoff is a deal breaker obviously. This happens with only a couple other tracks recorded on the song as I thought it may be overload.

Anyone's help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Skijumptoes
Posts: 681
Joined: 11:08, 21 June 2010

Re: Tone release issues during sequencing

Post by Skijumptoes »

Sounds like you're hitting the maximum voice polyphony (128), each tone can be made of multiple voices so it's not always obvious how many voices you are using at any one time. You can reserve voices to the strings section if they are critical, and that way they won't cut out - however, something else further back in the mix/less important will.

Another thing to note, is that if you have tracks muted, they are still using up the max polyphony count, as muting purely drops the volume on that channel but the voice is still being processed.

Hope that makes sense?
Leif Ericsson
Posts: 6
Joined: 16:56, 9 December 2016

Re: Tone release issues during sequencing

Post by Leif Ericsson »

When you refer to the muting, does this mean every song I have saved or just the current song I'm working on?

I'm not sure how I could already reach that 128 polyphony if I only have like 4 tracks recorded, one of them being drums.

Being I've never ran into this, is it possible that I have too many songs saved on the card?
Gatorjohn
Posts: 96
Joined: 15:39, 3 July 2016
Location: N E Florida

Re: Tone release issues during sequencing

Post by Gatorjohn »

Polyphony limit only apples to the current studio set being played. The songs saved on the SD card are of no consequence.

Checkout this thread: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=48574&p=292799&hil ... ny#p292799
Leif Ericsson
Posts: 6
Joined: 16:56, 9 December 2016

Re: Tone release issues during sequencing

Post by Leif Ericsson »

Sorry to be a pain.

I'm just not seeing why I'm having cutoff with so little tracks on the song.

I've sequenced about 30-40 songs saved and I had never had this happen up to this point even on songs that had several tracks. The songs preloaded have like 13 tracks with tons of elements and there is no cutoff. I would figure they would have reached max polyphony.

I have some orchestra expansion packs loaded. Would using these be part of the problem? Does dragging the release out affect polyphony?

I'm definitely not sequencing too many sounds (it seems) but I'm wondering if I unintentionally changed something along the line.
Leif Ericsson
Posts: 6
Joined: 16:56, 9 December 2016

Re: Tone release issues during sequencing

Post by Leif Ericsson »

Gatorjohn wrote:Polyphony limit only apples to the current studio set being played. The songs saved on the SD card are of no consequence.

Checkout this thread: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=48574&p=292799&hil ... ny#p292799

Thanks for that link. May prove useful.
Leif Ericsson
Posts: 6
Joined: 16:56, 9 December 2016

Re: Tone release issues during sequencing

Post by Leif Ericsson »

I may be using this whole machine wrong,

In the song I'm doing there are only 2 separate piano parts, and then one swelling string part. I usually don't hold more than 3 notes down in a chord for the strings, but I'm opening the release so they decay slowly while starting the other chord before the last decays. I'm using the modulation wheel (knob) to slowly swell the strings in per chord. Strings were cutting off.

I have been using mute on other songs to bring parts in and out while I record to my DAW. From everything I've been reading, muting causes some issues?
Skijumptoes
Posts: 681
Joined: 11:08, 21 June 2010

Re: Tone release issues during sequencing

Post by Skijumptoes »

It only matters what you have loaded and the FA is playing at the time, don't worry about other songs which are saved etc.

The number you're using at once does (2 pianos, one string) sound +VERY+ low for the sounds to cut out - however, it very much depends on what is being played.

128 'Voices' is not always as straight forward as it sounds, for example a Tone with 4 partials will use up 4 voices per note, and these voices are still being used up even if you had tracks muted, so i thought i would make you aware of that - as it's most common to hear this effect when muted, as you are using more voices without releasing.

Now, if your strings are made up of 4 partials, and you're holding 3 note chords and the release is held open, that's 12 voices being used per chord. If at any time 3 chords were to be overlapped you're hitting 36 voice use (As an example).

I think, you're best to find out if this is the issue you're having, so on the part view you can scroll across to the voice reserve setting - set it to a high number such as 60, and see if that eradicates the issue - other sounds may then cutoff earlier than required, but your strings are ok - if that happens, then this is the issue you are experiencing.

In this example, do you know which presets you are using? We can see how many partials are being used for each note press then.
Leif Ericsson
Posts: 6
Joined: 16:56, 9 December 2016

Re: Tone release issues during sequencing

Post by Leif Ericsson »

Thanks for the input.

In this particular song, I'm using 3 piano tracks recorded and trying to do live strings over the loop which is 12 measures long. I meant to mute out certain parts and bring them in slowly while recording into my DAW.

All 3 piano tracks are "Full Grand 2"
The live strings are "StringsSect1". Strings are cutting out when i let off the keys even if I press one note with release open (not fully).
Skijumptoes
Posts: 681
Joined: 11:08, 21 June 2010

Re: Tone release issues during sequencing

Post by Skijumptoes »

Ah, ok, so Full Grand 2 and StringsSect1 are both SN-A (Supernatural sounds).

In that case, the polyphony achieved is more related to processing power in the FA as they are more dynamic, than say a 4-partial PCM patch - which is fixed performance (i.e. SN-A instruments 'add in' characteristics as you play, and supposedly emulate the instrument using algorithms).

I've not seen any definitive answer on how many 'equivalent' voices a SN-A patch takes up, but i don't think we'd be far off guessing at 6-8 voices per note/key as a worse case guess, so average that to 7.

So:-

Part 1 - Full Grand 2 - 3 Notes * 7 = 21 Voices.
Part 2 - Full Grand 2 - 3 Notes * 7 = 21 Voices.
Part 3 - Full Grand 2 - 3 Notes * 7 = 21 Voices.
Part 4 - StringsSect 1 - 3-9 Notes (With overlap) * 7 = 21-63 voices.

That's a potential of 80-120 (ish) of the 128 available. But,really, who knows the number of voices SN-A's use (!).

It's scary how quick you can reach the max polyphony, and whether it's Korg, Roland or Yamaha - they all operate using the same rules. Even a Korg Kronos which is a beast, runs out of polyphony relatively quick.

Thankfully there is voice reservation settings, I think you need to test the voice reservation option in Part View, and allow your strings some priority and see how that goes?

And i'll say it one more time, even if you had Parts 2-3 muted in the above example, they would still be using the polyphony. i.e. if you unmute a track after a sustained note has been struck, you will still hear the sustain as it has been processed as usual even when muted.

You can turn tracks *off* using part/sequencer view - this is better than muting if you're hitting polyphony limits but need to silence certain parts. Shame Roland didn't add these options to the sequencer screen really as the whole mute thing is confusing if you're running many muted tracks and getting cutouts on a single piano for example.
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