Program change not recognized in Cubase

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Joho
Posts: 5
Joined: 22:36, 18 January 2017

Program change not recognized in Cubase

Post by Joho »

Hi all,

I´m currently setting up my FA-08 to Cubase, and with the help of Willems patch file for presets (thanks again for uploading) it´s easy to go through the sounds. But from a workflow perspective the way back of preset/sound selection to the current Midi-Track would be great. Unfortunately I cannot find the issue why it´s not working. I assume it´s a newbie issue...

Setup:
- Cubase 9 Artist
- FA-08 connected via USB
- User Studio Set selected (which can be overwritten from DAW)
- FA 08 is running in DAW Mode
- Cubase setup with Mackie Ctrl done, works fine
- Recording of Midi-Parameters works fine

Any idea?

Thanks for your help,

Joho
stevel
Posts: 520
Joined: 07:08, 17 May 2015

Re: Program change not recognized in Cubase

Post by stevel »

Joho wrote:Hi all,

I´m currently setting up my FA-08 to Cubase, and with the help of Willems patch file for presets (thanks again for uploading) it´s easy to go through the sounds. But from a workflow perspective the way back of preset/sound selection to the current Midi-Track would be great. Unfortunately I cannot find the issue why it´s not working. I assume it´s a newbie issue...

Setup:
- Cubase 9 Artist
- FA-08 connected via USB
- User Studio Set selected (which can be overwritten from DAW)
- FA 08 is running in DAW Mode
- Cubase setup with Mackie Ctrl done, works fine
- Recording of Midi-Parameters works fine

Any idea?

Thanks for your help,

Joho

Well, the first thing I would do is record something into Cubase and play it back.

That tells you if MIDI Out is getting to the FA (all your MIDI IN stuff works because A you should see the indicator on the transport and B you wouldn't have control over all the other stuff if it wasn't).

I wonder, since you have it in DAW control, to you also have the Output set to the DAW control port?

The out should be like FA-06 Channel 1 (assuming you're not running it through some other interface).

If MIDI playback works, try changing the patches while it's playing back.

If they don't change the first thing I'd do is try the FA not in DAW mode and see if that works or not.

The 2nd thing I'd check is in the Cubase settings - look in the Preferences for a MIDI Filter and make sure that Program Change is not being filtered on the out side - I have a way earlier version but on mine, by default, SysEx is the only thing filtered incoming and outgoing.

The 3rd thing to check is to make sure on the FA that Program Change Messages are set to receive.

Check all those and report back either what the settings are and what you tried.

The other thing is, if the MIDI is going out of Cubase OK to play notes, start the sequencer onboard the FA and record, and then make an on screen change on cubase to select a different patch.

You should then see some data recorded into the Cubase sequencer proving the message came over.

Here's my patch script - not sure if it's still .txt or .xml but this works with my ancient version of LE (I need to edit it to include everything I think) but at least you could try it and see if there's any problem in the script file itself.
FA06 Tone+GM2+EXP.txt
FA 06 Cubase Patch Script (test)
(159.03 KiB) Downloaded 85 times
Joho
Posts: 5
Joined: 22:36, 18 January 2017

Re: Program change not recognized in Cubase

Post by Joho »

Hi Steve,

thanks for your reply.
Well, the first thing I would do is record something into Cubase and play it back.

That tells you if MIDI Out is getting to the FA (all your MIDI IN stuff works because A you should see the indicator on the transport and B you wouldn't have control over all the other stuff if it wasn't).
This works fine. I can record track by track without any issues
I wonder, since you have it in DAW control, to you also have the Output set to the DAW control port?
No, output is still FA 06 08. As far as I understood the "Mackie Ctrl" is independent from the "FA 06 08" device. I´ve created a default user studio set on the FA-08. Program changes in Cubase are reflected there correctly.

The out should be like FA-06 Channel 1 (assuming you're not running it through some other interface).

If MIDI playback works, try changing the patches while it's playing back.

If they don't change the first thing I'd do is try the FA not in DAW mode and see if that works or not.

The 2nd thing I'd check is in the Cubase settings - look in the Preferences for a MIDI Filter and make sure that Program Change is not being filtered on the out side - I have a way earlier version but on mine, by default, SysEx is the only thing filtered incoming and outgoing.
Record program changes get considered - also in playback. I have the same (default) filter settings - just SyEx.

The 3rd thing to check is to make sure on the FA that Program Change Messages are set to receive.
Yep, is working... like described above within by setting in Cubase Inspector as well recorded in a track.

I´ve installed the script (worked fine copied in the Patchnames folder structure), but made no difference unfortunately.

I checked the program change events recorded like mentioned above - they are looking fine. Also when I´m just selected the record button on a certain track and selecting a tone on FA08 (in DAW Ctrl --> Studio Set) in the corresponding channels I can see that MIDI messages are sent to Cubase (Activity Bar below). However, they are not recognized... on track level.

The same behavior I got w/o DAW Ctrl, with the same Studio set selected above. So my thoughts are that it´s makes no difference playing in DAW mode or not, because the tone handling and generation is always related to a certain studio set.

Let me phrase my expectations like this: When I´m selecting a Midi Track, pressing the "record" button on track level w/o general recording, all MIDI related prep settings should be transported and considered by Cubase, like Program change, initial sound modification like release, pan, level... how should I otherwise prepare the track for the real, final recording?

Thanks,

Regards, Joe
Attachments
Recorded Program Change Events in Track
Recorded Program Change Events in Track
Bildschirmfoto 2017-01-19 um 12.06.02.png (364.55 KiB) Viewed 1083 times
stevel
Posts: 520
Joined: 07:08, 17 May 2015

Re: Program change not recognized in Cubase

Post by stevel »

Joe,

Are you saying that those PC/MSB/LSB events are in your "event list" and are all "recorded" (or inserted) on to a Track in succession?

I'm assuming you're thinking if you play back that track and watch the part on that channel on the studio set, it will change the tone of that part.

But you're saying it's not doing it, correct?

Years ago, when I did this in Cubase, I put a bit of time - like maybe a 32nds or 64ths note worth of time between each message (sorry, I forget how many PPQN the resolution is). Like MSB/LSB/PC.

In theory they can't go over simultaneously becuase it's a serial protocol but for some reason I remember putting a little time between each message of the trio.

But are you also saying when you select a Patch from the patch script, it also won't change sounds?

What about if you manually type in the bank numbers?

You could import a GM patch and just try it - see if it will at least change sounds within a single bank.

Oh, another thing - are you trying to put all the information on the track so it all goes over before the sequence plays?

I remember I had a problem with it not "catching" all the patch information if you started the music right at the beginning.

I always made my students start their projects at Measure 5 so that there would be time for all of the MIDI information to get sent over before the first note was played. I recall there was some problem with doing Loop Recording at the very beginning of measure 1 - it would always cause a disruption a beat or 2 into the loop.

By starting everything at Measure 5 the Program/Bank Change messages (set by the selection in from the Patch Script menu), Volume, Pan, etc - which weren't "written in" to the Track as events but were just "track settings" all got over before the first MIDI event happened.
Joho
Posts: 5
Joined: 22:36, 18 January 2017

Re: Program change not recognized in Cubase

Post by Joho »

Steve,
Are you saying that those PC/MSB/LSB events are in your "event list" and are all "recorded" (or inserted) on to a Track in succession?

I'm assuming you're thinking if you play back that track and watch the part on that channel on the studio set, it will change the tone of that part.

But you're saying it's not doing it, correct?
No, this is working fine. The PC/MSB/LSB events shown in the screenshot are recorded and during playback the studio set part will be changed. That´s exactly what I´m expecting -- recording of every event. If necessary.

From scratch - I´m missing the following use case in my workflow:
- Cubase: Select a track (and so device/channel)
- FA-08, in Studio Set, Same part/channel: Search for a cool preset to work with
--> Last selected preset is assigned to track in Cubase

Currently:
- Cubase: Select a track (and so device/channel)
- FA-08, in Studio Set, Same part/channel: Search for a cool preset to work with
- Cubase: Search manually again for the same preset
--> Double effort

Till 2001-2002 I worked with Emagic Logic 5 Platinum, a Yamaha CS6x, JV 1010, Waldorf MicroQ, EMU ESI-4000, Boss DR-770 etc... ;-) well, good old times. There it worked for all(!) of the mentioned devices - selecting a new sound manually on the synth changed the preset in DAW (according to track, channel etc...).

Now I relaunched my hobby starting with Cubase and the FA-08. And wondering, 15 years later, that this is not longer working. Or not in Cubase working. Or not in FA-08 and Cubase... ;-)
stevel
Posts: 520
Joined: 07:08, 17 May 2015

Re: Program change not recognized in Cubase

Post by stevel »

Joho wrote: Currently:
- Cubase: Select a track (and so device/channel)
- FA-08, in Studio Set, Same part/channel: Search for a cool preset to work with
- Cubase: Search manually again for the same preset
--> Double effort
Aha...

Ok, that's right. Cubase as far as I know only saves the Preset when you select it from the Patch List.

I think, if you have your very first Patch selected - say Preset 1, if you pick a cool preset on the FA, like #45, it doesn't "write" that into the Cubase track.

You could record the Preset number into your track, but I think what's always going to happen is when you open Cubase and start it playing, if it still says Preset 1 on the track controls (in the Inspector) and send that message over causing the FA to change to Preset 1, until it reaches the Bank Sel/Program Change message in your track. When that happens, it will change the sound on the FA, but, the display in the inspector will still read Preset 1.

In other words, selecting a Patch from the Patch Names in the Inspectors SENDS a MIDI message out, but that thing doesn't respond to MIDI messages coming in to my knowledge.

Probably the best thing you can do is when you do the pull down menu to select a Preset in the Inspector, there's a "Filter" (or maybe "Search") field.

Just type in the name of the sound (or enough letters to get you close) and it will show you only those presets with those letters in that order. Like if you type "scat", you'll get "Scat Flute" as one of the very few choices - this makes it WAY easier to find than having to hunt through all the banks and sounds.

Obviously for something like Lead Synth 12 you'll need most of the title to differentiate between all the other patches with "lead" and "synth" in the title.

That's the only way I know of.

If you pick your Presets from the Patch List in the Inspector, you shouldn't need to put the MSB/LSB/PC messages in the track at all. The Bank/PC will be saved when you save the file and be sent over when you press play every time.

Steve
Joho
Posts: 5
Joined: 22:36, 18 January 2017

Re: Program change not recognized in Cubase

Post by Joho »

Yep, I think that´s the way I´ll go. Or replace Cubase and switch back to Logic. Or maybe Bitwig? Let´s see...

Thanks for your help, Steve! Much appreciated!

Joe
stevel
Posts: 520
Joined: 07:08, 17 May 2015

Re: Program change not recognized in Cubase

Post by stevel »

Joho wrote:Yep, I think that´s the way I´ll go. Or replace Cubase and switch back to Logic. Or maybe Bitwig? Let´s see...

Thanks for your help, Steve! Much appreciated!

Joe
FWIW Joe, I had the worst trouble trying to get the Patch Scripts in Logic Pro X to work. In fact, I still haven't been able to get all the patches from a Fantom Rack in. It would only allow me a fixed number of banks (even though it listed like 32, only 24 were available or something like that).

It took me weeks to find a viable script and then edit it in that strange sub-screen to get it to work. Had to do it for a Motif Rack as well. Nightmare.

I think in Cubase, IIRC, it would only keep the previous patch that was used in a project if my students failed to select a preset. But it wasn't being sent from the synth.

It's been about two years since I worked with Logic but I can't remember it working any differently than Cubase, but it has been a while...so you probably remember better.
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