FA08 or DS88 for Newer Player?

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Clean
Posts: 2
Joined: 00:33, 28 February 2017

FA08 or DS88 for Newer Player?

Post by Clean »

Hi All,

I'm new to the world of keyboard, but I've been playing the guitar for about 7 years now, so not new to aspects of music/theory. I'm looking to purchase my first keyboard for playing at home, making my own tracks, and covers and I've basically narrowed it down to these two. Which one do you think would fit my needs for 80s/new wave/EDM type music? I've tried both and I like the simplicity of the DS88, but also am worried that I won't have the sample/playback capabilities that I would with the FA08?
Skijumptoes
Posts: 681
Joined: 11:08, 21 June 2010

Re: FA08 or DS88 for Newer Player?

Post by Skijumptoes »

I wouldn't worry about the sampling abilities of the FA so much, as they're not fully fleshed out on the FA either. The sampler is ok for recording an audio track or two into it's sequencer, if you play guitar for example, and for creating quick ideas, and having a bit of fun with loops etc. But anything deeper it's quite limited.

It has it's flaws, for example if you want to record audio to the song sequencer you have to record into sample pads, and then play them back via sample triggering, and also that you can't play back samples whilst recording new ones - so, for example, you couldn't record a guitar track via audio in, and then play that back and record vocals over it while the guitar track plays back.

Also, you can't pitch the same sample across different keys, if for example, you wanted to sample a sound and play it back as you would on an old school sampler.

For me the biggest factor between DS and FA would be the newer/more maturer sounds on the FA, i.e. by that i mean the Roland VA (virtual analog) emulation and Supernatural sounds - They really are superb, the filter is silky smooth which is great for pad/strings etc. Particularly if you're into 80s sounds, the FA is absolutely packed full of them, and they really do sound great. When i first got my FA it felt like i was stepping through Roland's history of synthesis going through each preset.

Add to that the better screen and 16 part studio sets and you can see why the FA sits ahead. But really, it all comes down to what you need. I.e. if you're not using 16 part studio sets, and aren't at the stage to appreciate the benefits of the supernatural/va engine on the FA, then it's just not worth the extra price. The DS is very good.

However, if i had the choice between a DS88 and an FA-06 (As they're similar price over here), i would take the hit on the 88 keys and get the FA-06 - i love my FA so much, i just couldn't be without the sounds it offers me.

To be honest, the 88 key versions can sometimes be a hindrance for fast playing drum/synth parts, because of the hammer/weighted action, but they are of much better quality and nice if you want to learn piano etc.

I absolutely love building up multilayered studio sets that split across the keyboard - for song writing/playing live, that really is nice to have.

And Yeah, the FA may have Roland's best modern user interfaces, but i can see how it's not easy for those new to the concept, i.e. Tones, Partials, MFX's, SN-S, PCM-D, PCM-S etc. it isn't straight forward if you've not got a frame of reference to start with.

However, this forum is pretty active and you'll usually get some help if you get stuck. However, if you're seriously still considering the FA make sure you educate yourself on it's shortcomings, cause their are some crucial ones which could frustrate you if you're thinking it's an all-singing all-dancing do-everything machine. These shortcomings are mainly related to the sampling (as i alluded to above), and control of other external midi gear.

It's also worth noting that the DS has some features that the FA doesn't, i believe it has a loop mode for sequencing too, where you can record Matrix/Ableton-style into the pads? That's a nice feature, if i'm right in assuming that's what it can do.
stevel
Posts: 520
Joined: 07:08, 17 May 2015

Re: FA08 or DS88 for Newer Player?

Post by stevel »

Hello Clean, and welcome to the forum.

It's kind of hard to tell because there can be so many variables at play. I've not compared the action on the 88 key versions of both so I can't speak to that.

But in general, the FA series seems to be the "big brother" to the DS series.

They share a lot of features and controls, and on the surface, the FA series just has more of everything - 6 knobs on the matrix instead of 4 (and maybe more rows to assign), double the pads, double the tracks for a sequencer, and probably what equates to double the amount of sounds.

I'd say the biggest "important" differences for you may be:

1. The FA has "Supernatural" sounds, which is Roland's newerish modelling synthesis method. It has banks of Supernatural Acoustic, Supernatural Synth, and Supernatural Drums. These sounds are stellar and almost sound like you're triggering recorded samples of the sounds rather than using a "sample based synthesis" in what everyone generally calls "Romplers" (which interestingly seem to get a bad rap, but really still produce quite excellent sounds and some easily rival that of the SN sounds).

The FA also has plenty of PCM sounds (Rompler synth) including General MIDI patches (which are also made the same way).

I believe the DS has ONLY Rompler style sounds and no Supernatural sounds. Again, there's nothing wrong with Rompler sounds and they sound absolutely fine.

What kind of separates the SN sounds is partly that they sound a little more like what you're hearing from Virtual Instrument in Logic and have that "modern producer" or "studio quality" feel to them.

But they also do some cool things like have "variations" - for example, the SN Strings have a normal bowed sound, a pizzicato sound, a marcato sound, and a tremolo sound all on the same patch. In the past you would have to change from a Bowed String patch to a Pizzicato String Patch but here you can touch a button or controller and just change the sound of the sound without changing patches! Not all of them do something like this, but for Acoustic Guitar for example, it has a strum speed and can make it sound WAY more realistic than I've ever heard before (I'm a guitarist and I'm very critical of synth guitar patches).

Now, if you want very realistic Piano, Organ, Electric Piano, Strings, Drums, etc. sounds, then the FA is the way to go.

If instead you want to save some coin and only need non-SN versions of those sounds (since you may likely want to use more synth sounds and things like Piano with a bunch of effects on it where the original sound doesn't matter as much, the DS would be fine.

The other big difference for what you describe is the 16 Tack Sequencer and 16 Pads for sample playback (loop triggering) versus half that on the DS. Again, that saves you some money if you don't really need it.

I wouldn't say the FA is "any more complex" with those features - they're probably very similar if not identical, you just have more of them in the FA.

If you were using a DAW to do all this work, I'd say the DS would be enough as you might not do all that much onboard work. But if you're going to be working primarily on the keyboard itself, the FA makes more sense (and I actually find the Sequencer to be really well implemented for basic tasks).

Are you playing live?

If you're playing live and need more control over sounds (EDM type filter sweeps, delays, etc.) then again the FA just gives you more of everything, and more access. You can assign 6 knobs to do a lot of tasks in addition to the 18 other presets they're set to. Coupled with the 16 track sequencer and 16 pads (which can have 4 banks for a total of 48 samples per song) that gives you a LOT of options for sculpting and triggering and sculpting triggered sounds on the fly!

And of course those features can be useful for recording as well.

I'm not familiar with the nitty gritty specs such as whether the DS has the drum patterns, or whether you can play the sample pads from the keys or not, etc. There are a lot of "hidden features" in the FA and the DS may share many of them, but again it may not. Those are not the things that the specs often mention and only things you find out when you get it home and play with it an go, "oh, that's cool".

There is a vocoder thing on the FA that might be of interest, I'm not sure if the DS shares it - if it does it just may have fewer effects.

So, I think the DS would be absolutely fine. You could buy one and use it a very long time. The money you save could go towards buying other additional synths for different styles of sounds.

An alternative would be, rather than buying an 88 key version if you don't really need it, buy the FA - that's FA-06 - fewer keys, but smaller footprint, lighter, better for the all around sounds that don't really require a hammer action, so you can save some money there as well - the FA-06 might be more similarly priced to the DS 88. You get all the FA features and sounds, but you give up the 88 keys and weighted action. If you're not a "piano player", you may not really need it.

Any two handed stuff you can't fit on a 61 you can just record separately and change the octave where necessary. It'd sure be nice for me to have an 88, but I couldn't justify the cost over features (and I was gigging with it in a band so the weight and stage footprint were issues as well).

I don't think you'd ever truly "out grow" the DS, but you could certainly run into limitations that would cause you to need to add additional instruments or controllers sooner. The FA would probably give you more room to "grow into" and you'd probably never *need* to augment it, you'd only *want* to augment it (you're getting ready to fall into a money pit in case you haven't guessed :-)

If you've got the money, the FA88 I'd say go for. If you think you're going to continue in music and it'll be a worthwhile investment that could last you decades if taken care of (as could the DS for what it does).

I can't remember if the 88 key versions have aftertouch, and that may not matter to you, but the FA-06 does not and that was a dealbreaker for many.

Hope that helped.
stevel
Posts: 520
Joined: 07:08, 17 May 2015

Re: FA08 or DS88 for Newer Player?

Post by stevel »

Ha, skijumptones responded while I was typing my thesis, but how could I forget about the display! It is really nice. Navigation is nice. I'm glad they agree about taking the hit on the 88 keys and going to the FA-06 for a similar price because that makes the most sense to me for MY purposes.

I will say, yes, it's not a "sampler" and it's not a "looper".

What you can do is trigger up to 4 at a time pre-recorded - let's call them "audio clips" rather than samples.

It's an "audio clip launcher" basically.

You *could* sample a C, a C#, a D, a D#, etc. on each key but it would be very time consuming and impractical with so many other sounds in the instrument (though as we've discovered, if someone could do the Tom Sawyer sound we'd all be set!).

I'm not that into the loop launching thing, but I imagine setting up all your loops to be the same volume and same timing would be extremely tedious in the FA. If I were going to do it, I'd do them all in a DAW where I could sync and adjust everything and export them as audio to the card and just access them that way. Much more sensible.

However, the pads can be used to change parts in a studio set - mute and solo various parts, which is actually a very powerful use for live playing. So they can be used for a few other things (and Part 16 has the samples on it so you can actually play them all from the keyboard if you want!).
Skijumptoes
Posts: 681
Joined: 11:08, 21 June 2010

Re: FA08 or DS88 for Newer Player?

Post by Skijumptoes »

I love the 88 key FA, think it's better build quality all round, even looks nicer. But in use there's something great about the FA being this lighter 'take anywhere' kinda keyboard that houses a ton of power.

I find finger drumming and faster synth playing, like bass etc. much better on the -06

But man-oh-man, piano etc. is wonderful on the -08, i think it's a joy! :-)

So... I ended up with an FA-06 and an 88 key controller to get the best of both worlds, and of course, this works super well with studio sets as i have my 88 key down lower for sitting piano parts, and the FA higher on the rack for synth lines where i generally tend to stand and be on the move between different pieces of gear.

Over winter months, where my studio area can get a bit cold (It's outside with just plug-in electrical heaters), i've loved being able to take the -06 into the house, or round other people's houses and jam. Elements like the sequencer, audio input etc., basic sampling ability do really add to that when disconnected from the DAW.

In fact, i found out something really cool a few weeks back, and that's that i was able to power my 88 key midi controller from the USB host port on the FA, and use a midi cable to control the FA, i wasn't too popular in the house having two keyboards sat in the living room, but hey, it had to be done in the interest of research... A guitar and mic also made their way into the family space lol!! :-)
husker
Posts: 39
Joined: 03:52, 16 February 2017

Re: FA08 or DS88 for Newer Player?

Post by husker »

stevel wrote: But they also do some cool things like have "variations" - for example, the SN Strings have a normal bowed sound, a pizzicato sound, a marcato sound, and a tremolo sound all on the same patch. In the past you would have to change from a Bowed String patch to a Pizzicato String Patch but here you can touch a button or controller and just change the sound of the sound without changing patches! Not all of them do something like this, but for Acoustic Guitar for example, it has a strum speed and can make it sound WAY more realistic than I've ever heard before (I'm a guitarist and I'm very critical of synth guitar patches).

Wow - how do you do this?
stevel
Posts: 520
Joined: 07:08, 17 May 2015

Re: FA08 or DS88 for Newer Player?

Post by stevel »

husker wrote:
stevel wrote: But they also do some cool things like have "variations" - for example, the SN Strings have a normal bowed sound, a pizzicato sound, a marcato sound, and a tremolo sound all on the same patch. In the past you would have to change from a Bowed String patch to a Pizzicato String Patch but here you can touch a button or controller and just change the sound of the sound without changing patches! Not all of them do something like this, but for Acoustic Guitar for example, it has a strum speed and can make it sound WAY more realistic than I've ever heard before (I'm a guitarist and I'm very critical of synth guitar patches).

Wow - how do you do this?
With Controller messages.

By default, some of the supernatural sounds have them set to the S1 and S2 buttons.

Not all SN sounds have these variations though. They're in one of the manuals on p. 118 and following.

On most of the Electric Pianos, CC16 controls the "noise level" (pretty subtle effect, but how much of the inner working noise you hear)

On the Nylon and SteelStr Guitars, CC16 controls the "pick noise", and CC17 controls the Strum Speed (like a "rolled chord" instead of all at once). CC19 controls the "mode".

For Strings and Marcato Strings, CC19 puts them in legato mode.

CC 80, 81 and 82 also do similar things on some sounds.

For the guitars, they do Mute and Harmonics respectively. For Bass, they do "slap" or mute and Harmonics.

For Strings it does Staccato, Pizzicato, and Tremolo.

CC80 and 81 are the ones that are assigned to S1 and S2 by default on these patches.

The Mod Wheel (which is CC1) does Vibrato on most instruments (even piano!) but it's not necessarily like LFO mod. The strings add "dynamics" to the vibrato as well (sort of like upping the intensity).

The guitars and strings also respond to Aftertouch messages (which the FA can't create - have to be sent from elsewhere).

The SN Drum sets also respond to CC1 messages by doing rolls on some sounds! This is actually very cool.

The Snares, ride cymbals, tambourine, conga, triangle, and castenets will all make a "roll" variation when you use the Mod Wheel (or send CC1 messages) for the SN kits.

Amazing what you can learn reading the manuals!!! :-)

I tend to play with things for a while before ever cracking open the manuals, but all this stuff is in one (sorry don't remember which off hand, mabye the tone list).
husker
Posts: 39
Joined: 03:52, 16 February 2017

Re: FA08 or DS88 for Newer Player?

Post by husker »

Cool, thank you.

I actually read the reference manual cover to cover (except for the appendices). My problem is that this FA is my first ever keyboard, and I'm WAY over my head. I'm still trying to truly understand what a Studio Set is... I probably read all of what you described, and probably just didn't understand it.


I'l have to play around with this.
stevel
Posts: 520
Joined: 07:08, 17 May 2015

Re: FA08 or DS88 for Newer Player?

Post by stevel »

husker wrote:Cool, thank you.

I actually read the reference manual cover to cover (except for the appendices). My problem is that this FA is my first ever keyboard, and I'm WAY over my head. I'm still trying to truly understand what a Studio Set is... I probably read all of what you described, and probably just didn't understand it.


I'l have to play around with this.
Yes. you do :-)

I came from using keys for a long time and it took me a while to grasp the concept of a Studio Set as well, so don't feel bad.

Basically you can play your FA in 4 modes:

1. One sound at a time. (Single)
2. Two sounds at a time, split. (Split)
3. Two sounds at a time, layered. (Dual)
4. Up to 16 sounds at a time, layered and/or split anyway you like! (Studio Set).

In the olden days, synths let you do the first 3 in what was often called a "Performance mode".

They would also have a "Multi-Timbral mode" which was usually designed to take in MIDI messages from a Sequencer program to play all 16 channels. You could however often do something like play the sound on Channel 1 from the keyboard (basically #1 above) and the other 15 would be triggered by MIDI from a computer/sequencer.

What a "Studio Set" has done is, basically combined the two elements so you could have any number of the 16 to play, or any number of them triggered by MIDI. So they've done away with the distinction between "Performance mode" and "Multi-timbral mode". In essence, the FA is always working in Multi-Timbral mode - you're just able to limit it to 1 or 2 sounds at a time so you don't confuse yourself looking at all 16!!!

In "single" mode, what you're doing is playing the first sound of a Studio Set - Part 1 on Channel 1.

In Split mode, you're playing the first 2. The Upper is Part 1 on Channel 1, and the Lower is Part 2 on Channel 2 - and these are really the first 2 parts in that Studio Set - you just don't see the whole Studio Set.

Dual mode works similarly.

It's not until you get to "Studio Set" in full that you see all 16 of the Parts (well you have to scroll the screen, but you know what I mean).

So what makes this sort of amazing is, you can layer up to 16 sounds, and you could split more than 2 sounds across the keyboard, and you can even split and layer both. Tritons used to do this and allow up to 4 sounds to be split/layered in any combination. The FA can do 16!

But you can also do the traditional Multi-Timbral thing - thing of a Studio Set like a "band" of 16 musicians - each one holding a different instrument. You could write music and they could each play 16 different things (that's what a sequencer would send it). But in this scenario, they all play together.

But another use for a Studio Set would be to have 16 instruments at your disposal that you, as a single player, were going to play 1 at a time. So your first song may need piano, so you put that in part 1. Your 2nd song may need Organ, so you put that in Part 2. Your third song may need piano again, so you either go back to part 1 or put it in Part 3 if you like. Your 4th song could require a Synth lead in the RH and a different Synth Bass in the LH - you could actually set up parts 4 and 5 to do this if you wanted to.

So what this allows is that the performing musician can pre-set a lot of stuff in one studio set without having to "change patches" and instead just change sounds within a set (the old synths could do this too but it was a little more involved selecting the channel and so on).

Now, where this is important is that even with patch remain in effect, a sound can't carry across studio sets. So if you had a sound holding in SS1 and then changed to SS2, that sound is going to get cut off. But if they're both in the same SS and you just switch *parts*, the sound of the former can remain as long as you need it.

So think of a Studio Set as a set of instruments that you can play the 1st one individually, the 1st and 2nd ones in Split or Dual mode, or any combination of the previous on any and all 16 sounds in the set - all by yourself at 1 time. The "Single", "Dual" and "Split" modes sort of just limit what you see and have immediate on-screen access to to the 1st or 1st and 2nd parts only.

But otherwise, you're *always* playing the Studio Set whether you know it or not :-)

And, the SS can also be a "band" of 16 instruments you could trigger via MIDI from a Sequencer.

And the SS could be a pile of instruments in your living room that you could pick up and play one at a time to record various sounds from, or a pile of instruments you have on stage that you can pick each up and play in turn during a live performance.

HTH,
Steve
husker
Posts: 39
Joined: 03:52, 16 February 2017

Re: FA08 or DS88 for Newer Player?

Post by husker »

Stevel - this is an excellent explanation of this. I "get it" now - I spent probably 8 hours in the last two days just playing around with this functionality.

Cool stuff - thank you for taking the time to explain. Much better than the manual.
stevel
Posts: 520
Joined: 07:08, 17 May 2015

Re: FA08 or DS88 for Newer Player?

Post by stevel »

husker wrote:Stevel - this is an excellent explanation of this. I "get it" now - I spent probably 8 hours in the last two days just playing around with this functionality.

Cool stuff - thank you for taking the time to explain. Much better than the manual.
Great! Glad I could help.

Have fun!!!!
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