FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Forum for Roland FA-06/08
BassBob
Posts: 6
Joined: 16:00, 20 March 2017

FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by BassBob »

According to the FA that I have the pianos have a thin, tinny sound. In order to get any
volume/loudness I have to turn the volume knob beyond 3/4 for it to be heard. When I
double it with strings the notes on the higher register pretty much disappear. If I double
the piano with another piano there's no real difference. There's no comparison with my
Triton. I'm ready to dump this keyboard. What am I missing?
stevel
Posts: 520
Joined: 07:08, 17 May 2015

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by stevel »

You're missing the Velocity Curves or settings.

A while back there was some discussion that the FA06 Piano sound was NOT the same sound as the FA88 Piano sound.

But, someone wisely connected the keyboard from the 88 into the MIDI IN of the 06, and guess what - same sound!

The problem is, Roland is cutting more and more corners, so not only are the keys a little slinky, but the velocity is kind of wonky.

I had to set mine on the highest number to get any kind of reasonable piano dynamics out of it.

However, you could also set them really really low and you could get max volume with minimal effort, which may be what you want.

Press the "Menu" button then go to the "Keyboard" tab on the screen and you'll see:

Keyboard Velocity (Real)
Keyboard Velocity Curve
Keyboard Velocity Curve Offset

The first can be "Real" so it sends different values, or fixed.

The last two are like the "coarse" and "fine" settings for your velocity curves which directly affect how early the sound reaches full volume per unit of "how hard" you hit the key.

Now, I should warn, these are global settings and effect everything. So you may have to still adjust Piano in relation to Strings, but, with a lower setting the piano will reach full volume sooner and may be easier to balance.

I'm sure Roland was trying to do a "catch all" that covered Organ and Synth sounds as well as more velocity-sensitive sounds like Piano and Electric Piano.

But it's really a question of finding what works best for you and your setup.

I have a Roland A-800 Pro controller keyboard that has the same feel in the keys.

But guess what - the velocity curves are not the same! the first time I plugged it into the FA and tried to balance the sounds, I realized the Piano sounded WAY better from the A-800 keyboard. It's then that I realized it's the velocity curves.

I asked here for suggested settings and no one answered, but I have mine set to "Heavy" and "9" which is as high as it goes! You probably want it lower so the piano gets louder quicker. I have to really lay on it for sounds that have a higher velocity change in the sound (like some guitar sounds will slide into a note or bend if you hit the key hard) but it works best for Piano (though the A-800 is STILL better IMHO).

FWIW, I'd just drop the volume of the strings patch way down and turn up the whole thing. I like to keep the dynamic range of the piano for recording. Now, for live playing, I'm good with it cutting through the mix - so the lower numbers worked better for me there.

HTH,
Steve
bennyseven
Posts: 699
Joined: 18:01, 19 April 2014
Location: Germany

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by bennyseven »

BassBob wrote:According to the FA that I have the pianos have a thin, tinny sound. In order to get any
volume/loudness I have to turn the volume knob beyond 3/4 for it to be heard.

Hello Bassbob,
this appears to me that you should check cables and volume setting of your amp. Putting the volume knob to 3 o'clock should be a good output volume from the FA. Check also stereo connection if you have mono amp.
I had a TRS stereo to XLR mono cable and the result was thin, like you describe above. It was a fault connection.
Did you check via headphone, on the headphone output jack?

The SNA piano is way ahead of the triton piano, in my opinion. Lets try to adjust keys action like stevel mentioned.
cheers,
BennySeven
Joe P
Posts: 159
Joined: 21:44, 20 November 2014

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by Joe P »

Also, Bob, if you are in studio set/layer mode check the output level of each part.

Regards,
Joe
Neil ForestTree
Posts: 14
Joined: 13:22, 1 March 2017

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by Neil ForestTree »

Stevel is on to something with the velocity curves. I was preparing to sell my old Studiologic VMK 188 weighted keyboard controller on eBay so plugged into my FA 08 and the pianos sound great, better than when using the FA's keyboard. It can only be the velocity curve. I've read somewhere that the Studiologic doesn't produce a full 127 velocity signal via midi and only reaches around 100. I can't say I ever noticed that but maybe the FA Pianos sound better in the 0-100 velocity range.
Emmerson
Posts: 77
Joined: 21:57, 13 August 2014

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by Emmerson »

Try doubling up a second layer piano. Might work.
stevel
Posts: 520
Joined: 07:08, 17 May 2015

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by stevel »

Neil ForestTree wrote:Stevel is on to something with the velocity curves. I was preparing to sell my old Studiologic VMK 188 weighted keyboard controller on eBay so plugged into my FA 08 and the pianos sound great, better than when using the FA's keyboard. It can only be the velocity curve. I've read somewhere that the Studiologic doesn't produce a full 127 velocity signal via midi and only reaches around 100. I can't say I ever noticed that but maybe the FA Pianos sound better in the 0-100 velocity range.
What happens if you choose lower Curve values is, it gets to 127 "quicker".

So let's say you could press the key with the following pressure:

10 lbs PSI
20 lbs PSI
30 lbs PSI

What would happen at a lower velocity value setting would be this, with the resulting 0-127 velocity numbers:

10 lbs PSI = 30
20 lbs PSI = 110
30 lbs PSI = 127

But with a higher velocity setting:

10 lbs PSI = 30
20 lbs PSI = 50
30 lbs PSI = 127

So the difference is in the "curve" - how quickly it ramps up - lower numbers means it reaches higher numbers quicker, so it would look like:

5 20 80 127

vs

5 10 50 127

Both are like Parabolic curves, but one ramps up fast and then levels out, and the other is level for longer and ramps up quickly at the end of the value spectrum.

Some keyboards allow you to select a parabolic curve or a diagonal line.

I can't really tell what the FA's velocity curves actually are - does the "offset" number simply change the curve of the parabola? Is the middle one a 45 degree angle?

I don't see that spec'd out anywhere.

But even if you did know, you'd have to experiment.

It's likely the Studiologic has a much more typical piano curve (being 88 keys).

Since you still have it, what I'd do is match the FA as closely as possible with it.

Still you may want to sometimes change it for Piano versus everything else.

I actually use 2 keyboards just for this purpose - and do piano on the A-800 because it's curves are better. But the synth stuff - the FA is fine.
techie
Posts: 46
Joined: 09:44, 3 January 2007

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by techie »

I was just thinking about same issue last evening. I play FA-06.

When I select acoustic or electric piano and play it alone my ear adjusts to its volume and it sounds ok. But as soon as I add some synth patch in Studio Set - e.g. the one which could be downloaded from Axial (synth legends), synth patch sounds much louder. It simply kills piano and any nuances and details which i tune before for piano patch.

Initially i thought that synth patches have Tone level set to higher value, also checked MFX values, but there is no difference - tone level set to 127 in both cases. Then i thought it's because of some Synth tone AMP envelope settings, but there is nothing suspicious.

So my current solution for a Studio Set with piano is to reduce volume for synth and drums parts in Studio Set view and raising for piano. E.g. piano is set to 127, synth lead to 70 and drums to 72. Not very convenient but at least i can hear piano at the same level of details then.

Maybe somebody can give more advanced explanation to this problem. Synth patches use same velocity curve, since it's a global value. Why the sound much more detailed and louder?
Neil ForestTree
Posts: 14
Joined: 13:22, 1 March 2017

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by Neil ForestTree »

I think this is just a human ear/brain thing. There are more overtones and higher levels of harmonics in a synth tone. Square waves and sawtooth waves particularly have a very high harmonic content. So when your ear and brain hear that complex waveform it gets interpreted as being a louder sound.

It's probably an evolutionary adaptation to help us understand speech and pick out babies crying and other critical sounds.
techie
Posts: 46
Joined: 09:44, 3 January 2007

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by techie »

Thanks for opinion. I wonder how mixing engineers "protect" soft piano sound in rock or electronic compositions from being overdubbed by others in studio. In a live situation in a small club only chance to shine is when a piano part comes at the moment when guitarst turns off distortion and makes backing chords and drummer contains himself from doing extra splashes etc :)
Joe P
Posts: 159
Joined: 21:44, 20 November 2014

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by Joe P »

It's probably a combination of factors, but my take is that factory patches have different default volume levels ( i.e. 127 on one patch does not necessarily equal 127 on another!), albeit within a range. In my experience with my FA08, it is always necessary to balance patches in a studio set or split/layer no matter what patches are involved. This is abundantly clear on Part 10 drums, but everything from ensemble brass to strings to synths - everything - needs to be treated.

I've done musical pit jobs, Floyd gigs, general rock and blues stuff and other things and balancing the part volumes is one of the first tasks. I have no expectations that the parts will be mixed to my liking. And yes, many times accommodating the quietest patch means turning down all the others! :-) I have a lot of studio sets with some voices at 70 and others at 127!

Good luck!
Joe
techie
Posts: 46
Joined: 09:44, 3 January 2007

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by techie »

Thank you Joe, it's always good to know practical experience from other musicians. I'll spend more time on adjusting levels and trying things out.
stevel
Posts: 520
Joined: 07:08, 17 May 2015

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by stevel »

techie wrote: So my current solution for a Studio Set with piano is to reduce volume for synth and drums parts in Studio Set view and raising for piano. E.g. piano is set to 127, synth lead to 70 and drums to 72. Not very convenient but at least i can hear piano at the same level of details then.

Maybe somebody can give more advanced explanation to this problem. Synth patches use same velocity curve, since it's a global value. Why the sound much more detailed and louder?
Actually, this has been the solution to the problem forever! I've never owned a synth over the years you didn't have to do this to.

Couple of reasons:

1. Some manufacturers don't even bother to attempt to balance sounds out!

2. With synthesized sounds, a Filter not only removes frequencies but also decreases the overall volume. So there's no real way to predict the end user's Filter setting on any sound, and thus no way to predict how loud the end result will be. So, rather than limit you, they make sure it's plenty loud on the top end, and let you pull it down to whatever you need (and it's always better to cut than boost).

3. All sounds have different envelopes, but those with "sustain" charachteristics - those that continue to make sound at the same volume as long as the key is held - such as Organ, Strings, Synths, etc. will "feel" or "seem" louder overall - so a Piano sound might hit 127 and fade to 20, but an Organ sound may hit only 80 but remain at 80. It's going to make the Organ "seem" louder even though the piano actually is louder - it's just that the piano's full volume happens for only a percentage of the sounding time, mostly right at the beginning.

This has to do with "perception" but again, the manufacturers build in ways for us to reduce the volume of things that are perceived louder so we can balance things as necessary.

4. Drums and other percussive instruments, including really any short but quick attack sound like Piano, Guitar, or even String Pizz and Harp, etc. have fast transient peaks. These happen really quickly but we don't really perceive them as super loud - they simply go by so fast our brains can't track them (this is kind of how compression for mp3s work).

In digital audio, they have to keep these peaks below 0 dbfs so they don't clip. However, it's not uncommon to put a limiter on drums helping to bring up the overall perceived level (which could be done to Piano and other instruments as well, and in the recording studio, commonly is).

5. Finally, even though the velocity curve is the same, how an instrument responds to the velocity curve varies too. Simply put, a synth oscillator may be "on" when it sees any number above 0, and "off" at 0. But there might be no difference at all between 1 and 127. It's a "non-velocity sensitive patch".

Harpsichord *should* react this way if it's being authentic becuase in the real world, there are no dynamics on a harpsichord - as soon as the quill plucks the string, you get 100% of the instrument's volume, period. It's either not playing a note, or it plays it at 100%, Every note played is played at full volume.

So, if a Harpsichord patch was velocity sensitive for some reason, one might want to play it with a keyboard set to a "fixed" setting on one with a velocity curve that reaches full volume really quickly and easily, so that it emulates the real thing.

So manufacturers give us control over both the overall volume of each patch as well as the velocity curve on the instrument, and in some cases you can even adjust how a patch responds to velocity information so we can have a big enough range to make all the adjustments we can.

You can, on some patches for example, use a lower velocity (like some guitar patches will play a muted guitar sound at velocities below 64) to create a "less intense" sounding sound, but use the volume to raise it to the level of everything else.

All this helps to compensate for our brain's inability to perceive all sounds the same as well as the technical limitations of digital audio and synthesis techniques, etc, as well as simply the logistics that some people might want a quiet instrument loud, a loud instrument quiet, an instrument that normally has dynamic range to have none, and other artistic purposes.

So I wouldn't ever call these things a "flaw" per se (though I will gripe about certain elements!) but just something else you need to learn to get the most out of these types of instruments.
techie
Posts: 46
Joined: 09:44, 3 January 2007

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by techie »

Wow stevel, thanks a lot. That's really detailed explanation !
PugFace
Posts: 124
Joined: 14:41, 17 December 2008
Location: UK

Re: FA 06 Piano is thin, tinny, low volume, useless

Post by PugFace »

When i first had my FA i also thought the pianos were tinny and was disappointed. I also have a Korg M50 so i compared the two. My solution was to turn up the compression. This livened it up completely. Korg's waves are compressed really well but being a bit of a rompler they sound a bit static whereas the FA's have better string resonance due to the emulation engine. So yes i agree with the comments here. But you have to work on the presets unfortunately to get them to compete with the korg's equivalent.
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