Is Roland actually really supporting the FA series?
If you detect a hint of sarcasm, that's because I owned a Jupiter 50 which Roland did basically nothing to support or update from the moment I got it ... which didn't keep me from using a lot of the excellent sounds in recordings. Or appreciating the nice keybed. Or liking the looks of the board.
But if I buy another Roland keyboard, I need to feel that the company is truly committed to keeping it refreshed and relevant into the forseeable future.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
Roland support for FA series
Re: Roland support for FA series
I would also like to know if there's a PC editor for it.
Re: Roland support for FA series
I suppose it depends on how you define "support".
Roland has released a firmware update that added some features.
They also added 1 new EXP (EXP 11) to the initial 10 that were available when I bought my FA.
They also released the FA-07.
The release of the update and the EXP were unexpected but it clearly coincided with the release of the FA-07.
I can't foresee them adding another keyboard to the line, but there are 14 or 16 EXP slots in the system so it is possible they might release another EXP (12) and another firmware update.
There is no Editor and I would not hold my breath for one.
There are some very stupid things Roland did in this series but you also have to realize they have a target audience in mind and if you're not part of that target audience your mileage will vary.
Roland's going to support what will make new sales for them, and I think the FA-07 came at a good time and was a smart move on their part. But I think once the market is saturated with FA series instruments, I can't see them supporting it anymore - and I think that point is probably close (of course, we were all saying that before the FA-07 magically appeared - still, it has "completed" the line though). I think the Boutique line is a money-maker for them, and it's a great business model because it makes for built in collectibility, making people want new units when they come out because they're "limited edition". In a sense, it's Roland's hardware version of VSTs - pretty smart.
I doubt they're really going to "fix" many of the things that are complained about either. The velocity issues on the 06 is not something that's a problem on the other models - it's really a keybed issue, so I doubt they'd update the firmware to take care of that just for the 06 owners. Likewise, they said so many people complained about the way the effects worked in the fantoms, that they made this change in the FAs intentionally. So I doubt we'll ever be able to assign an MFX to a button to turn it on and off. Seems a no-brainer, but there you go. Likewise, it's doubtful they'd do anything like allow us to control the drawbars with the 6 knobs.
So it has been updated, with many better features than it originally came with, but we're probably past the mid-life point of the series so how much more they'll do is anyone's guess.
I'll be honest with you though, from my perspective as someone who bought synths back the late 80s - you got what you got. There were no updates.
I kind hate this world we live in today where things are rushed to market (like video games especially) and then you have to download 20 updates that are more "bug fixes" than they are "enhancements".
I'd say, if you get an 07 or 08, just get it for what it is. Any updates will simply be icing on the cake. They are a lot of bang for the buck, and despite their annoyances - which EVERY device is going to have - are still great pieces of gear.
Just don't get the 06 unless you absolutely have to.
Roland has released a firmware update that added some features.
They also added 1 new EXP (EXP 11) to the initial 10 that were available when I bought my FA.
They also released the FA-07.
The release of the update and the EXP were unexpected but it clearly coincided with the release of the FA-07.
I can't foresee them adding another keyboard to the line, but there are 14 or 16 EXP slots in the system so it is possible they might release another EXP (12) and another firmware update.
There is no Editor and I would not hold my breath for one.
There are some very stupid things Roland did in this series but you also have to realize they have a target audience in mind and if you're not part of that target audience your mileage will vary.
Roland's going to support what will make new sales for them, and I think the FA-07 came at a good time and was a smart move on their part. But I think once the market is saturated with FA series instruments, I can't see them supporting it anymore - and I think that point is probably close (of course, we were all saying that before the FA-07 magically appeared - still, it has "completed" the line though). I think the Boutique line is a money-maker for them, and it's a great business model because it makes for built in collectibility, making people want new units when they come out because they're "limited edition". In a sense, it's Roland's hardware version of VSTs - pretty smart.
I doubt they're really going to "fix" many of the things that are complained about either. The velocity issues on the 06 is not something that's a problem on the other models - it's really a keybed issue, so I doubt they'd update the firmware to take care of that just for the 06 owners. Likewise, they said so many people complained about the way the effects worked in the fantoms, that they made this change in the FAs intentionally. So I doubt we'll ever be able to assign an MFX to a button to turn it on and off. Seems a no-brainer, but there you go. Likewise, it's doubtful they'd do anything like allow us to control the drawbars with the 6 knobs.
So it has been updated, with many better features than it originally came with, but we're probably past the mid-life point of the series so how much more they'll do is anyone's guess.
I'll be honest with you though, from my perspective as someone who bought synths back the late 80s - you got what you got. There were no updates.
I kind hate this world we live in today where things are rushed to market (like video games especially) and then you have to download 20 updates that are more "bug fixes" than they are "enhancements".
I'd say, if you get an 07 or 08, just get it for what it is. Any updates will simply be icing on the cake. They are a lot of bang for the buck, and despite their annoyances - which EVERY device is going to have - are still great pieces of gear.
Just don't get the 06 unless you absolutely have to.
Re: Roland support for FA series
I guess Steve has summed up it pretty well (as always!). And I agree with him totally. Especially about the part of buying it: buy it for what it NOW is. Can't you live without certain specs, don't buy it. Don't expect updates. Be surprised if Roland will give you something extra in a new update, don't count on it. Personally I found the feature of more use of the pads very exciting and unexpected: with one button you can switch between any number of tones in a Studio Set. I didn't even know I would need this and now I can't imagine I never had this feature in any other keyboard I had!stevel wrote: "......" So it has been updated, with many better features than it originally came with, but we're probably past the mid-life point of the series so how much more they'll do is anyone's guess.
I'll be honest with you though, from my perspective as someone who bought synths back the late 80s - you got what you got. There were no updates.
I kind hate this world we live in today where things are rushed to market (like video games especially) and then you have to download 20 updates that are more "bug fixes" than they are "enhancements".
I'd say, if you get an 07 or 08, just get it for what it is. Any updates will simply be icing on the cake. They are a lot of bang for the buck, and despite their annoyances - which EVERY device is going to have - are still great pieces of gear.
Just don't get the 06 unless you absolutely have to.
Always keep in mind: this is a low budget keyboard. Don't compare it to a Korg Kronos or Yamaha Montage. It's not fair.
Re: Roland support for FA series
Thank you Steve for your detailed response. It's really helpful.
You mentioned you've been buying these beasts since the 80's ... well I'm an original OB8 owner, and they came out with MIDI implementation, Page Two controls which were really extensive, and most importantly, I could reach them on the phone any time I wanted to and they would help me every single time and seemed glad to hear from me.
Flash forward to today. If I want to reach Roland for something, that seems like it's going to be a truly daunting proposition involving navigating phone trees and waiting around for some possible response. I almost felt like the company didn't want me to contact them when I owned the Jupiter.
So if as you suggest, this is it, take it or leave it ... I'll probably leave it even though I'd probably like the keybed and they do seem more liberal about granting access to lots of Integra sounds and other sounds which were never made available for the Jupiter.
I think Roland may have missed a trick by not including any sliders (like Yamaha XF for instance) that would serve double duty as DAW and plugin controllers. Not to mention some knobs for same.
The no-editor thing pretty much sums up where the company is at as far as making the customer experience welcoming or not.
You mentioned you've been buying these beasts since the 80's ... well I'm an original OB8 owner, and they came out with MIDI implementation, Page Two controls which were really extensive, and most importantly, I could reach them on the phone any time I wanted to and they would help me every single time and seemed glad to hear from me.
Flash forward to today. If I want to reach Roland for something, that seems like it's going to be a truly daunting proposition involving navigating phone trees and waiting around for some possible response. I almost felt like the company didn't want me to contact them when I owned the Jupiter.
So if as you suggest, this is it, take it or leave it ... I'll probably leave it even though I'd probably like the keybed and they do seem more liberal about granting access to lots of Integra sounds and other sounds which were never made available for the Jupiter.
I think Roland may have missed a trick by not including any sliders (like Yamaha XF for instance) that would serve double duty as DAW and plugin controllers. Not to mention some knobs for same.
The no-editor thing pretty much sums up where the company is at as far as making the customer experience welcoming or not.
-
Skijumptoes
- Posts: 681
- Joined: 11:08, 21 June 2010
Re: Roland support for FA series
I think it's quite clear that Roland are completely sales driven.
The FA received updates as the FA-07 was released, and they needed a push.
I don't believe we'll see anything else in terms of updates, but then i thought that pre FA-07. How long the USB Midi/Audio 'vendor' driver retains support is my only concern - who knows. As a V Synth owner who got burnt in the past, i'm never trusting of their support anymore, therefore i don't even use that driver, as handy as it could be.
Also, due to their sales nature they would never put sliders on a unit of this pricing either, as it directly would hit their VR range. It's a shame really as if you want to control the drawbars for the FA's organs you need to find some faders that are sysex efficient as you can't control drawbars with midi cc alone - so they would've been a neat inclusion, as it leaves you a little bit high and dry.
However, on the plus, it's not as though the FA is in desperate need of updates or it needs an ongoing support team to update it. It's fantastic as it is. I've owned equipment from companies who were far more frequent with updates, but it meant the at there was always issues/bugs that came and went, and i didn't like that approach either of updating your hardware, finding out that yes one bug had been fixed, but now notes stick, or your presets no longer sound the same etc.
I generally feel that Roland spend longer on getting stable firmwares out there, as they don't rely on the safety net of 'Hey, you'll get another update soon to fix these issues" bouncing you throughout the year.
Also, i can only judge on UK support but i've always found Roland to be very good and engaging, however there's definitely a frustration between them and head office as i've been met with many "Yes, We know" type replies when pointing out bugs, or lack of support for older equipment - and again, it makes you feel a bit high and dry too.
I think this is it for the FA at least in terms of updates, but i don't think that means it can't remain relevant, as it's never really been relevant in my mind, i see very few people singing it's praises, you don't really see it much on stage or in people's studios.
It's always been a 'best of' Roland machine to me, very backwards looking and that's why i got it. I don't want a dubstep machine that's going to warble sub bass at me, or some fancy modular where i'm making 'experimental' bleeps.
I wanted a machine packed with sounds that i could play some straight up music with (i.e. strong Pianos, Organs, and Synths), and that's exactly what i've got. And it's particularly strong at sounding like many Roland's of the past few decades (Funny that eh? lol), i view the FA as a rock in my setup, it's certainly not the young hip kid who's got any relevance at the local night spots. :)
The FA received updates as the FA-07 was released, and they needed a push.
I don't believe we'll see anything else in terms of updates, but then i thought that pre FA-07. How long the USB Midi/Audio 'vendor' driver retains support is my only concern - who knows. As a V Synth owner who got burnt in the past, i'm never trusting of their support anymore, therefore i don't even use that driver, as handy as it could be.
Also, due to their sales nature they would never put sliders on a unit of this pricing either, as it directly would hit their VR range. It's a shame really as if you want to control the drawbars for the FA's organs you need to find some faders that are sysex efficient as you can't control drawbars with midi cc alone - so they would've been a neat inclusion, as it leaves you a little bit high and dry.
However, on the plus, it's not as though the FA is in desperate need of updates or it needs an ongoing support team to update it. It's fantastic as it is. I've owned equipment from companies who were far more frequent with updates, but it meant the at there was always issues/bugs that came and went, and i didn't like that approach either of updating your hardware, finding out that yes one bug had been fixed, but now notes stick, or your presets no longer sound the same etc.
I generally feel that Roland spend longer on getting stable firmwares out there, as they don't rely on the safety net of 'Hey, you'll get another update soon to fix these issues" bouncing you throughout the year.
Also, i can only judge on UK support but i've always found Roland to be very good and engaging, however there's definitely a frustration between them and head office as i've been met with many "Yes, We know" type replies when pointing out bugs, or lack of support for older equipment - and again, it makes you feel a bit high and dry too.
I think this is it for the FA at least in terms of updates, but i don't think that means it can't remain relevant, as it's never really been relevant in my mind, i see very few people singing it's praises, you don't really see it much on stage or in people's studios.
It's always been a 'best of' Roland machine to me, very backwards looking and that's why i got it. I don't want a dubstep machine that's going to warble sub bass at me, or some fancy modular where i'm making 'experimental' bleeps.
I wanted a machine packed with sounds that i could play some straight up music with (i.e. strong Pianos, Organs, and Synths), and that's exactly what i've got. And it's particularly strong at sounding like many Roland's of the past few decades (Funny that eh? lol), i view the FA as a rock in my setup, it's certainly not the young hip kid who's got any relevance at the local night spots. :)
Re: Roland support for FA series
Thanks for conveying all your feelings about the FA series and Roland the company. I'm starting to feel like the two-is-better-than-one approach may be the ultimate way to approach MIDI Keyboards currently ... as in buying for example an FA-07 and a Nektar Panorama P1 would cover all the bases. That takes the pressure off your main keyboard to be all things to all people. Nektar is a communicative company which may make up for Roland being ... dysfunctional is a strong word ... let's say "seemingly unable and/or unwilling to carry on a dialog with its customers."
That is a big turnoff; as noted, it didn't keep me from getting the best out a Jupiter 50 ... although it would have been easier and I might have ventured even deeper into sonic nirvana had the company offered more ways to be helpful as opposed to putting out the vibe, "you're abandoned."
Would it be too much for an occasional Roland rep to show up on this forum? Apparently so.
Anyhow, I appreciate the responses so far, I can already tell which way the wind is blowing. While I clearly have issues with the company, I definitely don't have issues with their keybeds on 76-note products -- those are perfect for me. Not sure which way I'll go, but thanks for the feedback!
That is a big turnoff; as noted, it didn't keep me from getting the best out a Jupiter 50 ... although it would have been easier and I might have ventured even deeper into sonic nirvana had the company offered more ways to be helpful as opposed to putting out the vibe, "you're abandoned."
Would it be too much for an occasional Roland rep to show up on this forum? Apparently so.
Anyhow, I appreciate the responses so far, I can already tell which way the wind is blowing. While I clearly have issues with the company, I definitely don't have issues with their keybeds on 76-note products -- those are perfect for me. Not sure which way I'll go, but thanks for the feedback!
-
Skijumptoes
- Posts: 681
- Joined: 11:08, 21 June 2010
Re: Roland support for FA series
I originally got a Yamaha MOXF, as i liked everything about the Roland FA but i'd really had enough of Roland dropping their products and being quite arrogant and never really had Yamaha synths before - as i had kinda swore to myself to never buy Roland again, i thought it was decision made.
However, even with the MOXF i was watching youtube vids on the FA and wishing i had one, there's just something about that Roland sound i like.
However, eventually had a play with an integra and loved the sounds vs the MOXF, then had a play on the FA in store, really liked it, checked things like the Midi support - it was class compliant, so thought what can go wrong, and ended up swapping the MOXF for an FA, and i'm really happy i did, the arps are a big miss from the Yamaha, and some of the more organic sounds.
But - I just find the whole thing to be slick, if you like coming up with ideas and noodling standalone, then honestly, it's super quick to layer and sequence and has a ton of solid sounds, the screen is great and everything just seems super easy, and you can progress it further into a DAW too which i like that transition. I've not had much time with the Jupiters but you already know what to expect, i'm sure. :)
In terms of support, i don't know what you're expecting from Roland, as i said previously the only thing that would concern me is the vendor specific Midi+Audio USB Driver support, but i've totally disregarded that as a feature in anticipation of it disappearing overnight, and there doesn't appear to be any obvious design flaws that i've noticed (i.e. screens dying, that kind of thing).
However, even with the MOXF i was watching youtube vids on the FA and wishing i had one, there's just something about that Roland sound i like.
However, eventually had a play with an integra and loved the sounds vs the MOXF, then had a play on the FA in store, really liked it, checked things like the Midi support - it was class compliant, so thought what can go wrong, and ended up swapping the MOXF for an FA, and i'm really happy i did, the arps are a big miss from the Yamaha, and some of the more organic sounds.
But - I just find the whole thing to be slick, if you like coming up with ideas and noodling standalone, then honestly, it's super quick to layer and sequence and has a ton of solid sounds, the screen is great and everything just seems super easy, and you can progress it further into a DAW too which i like that transition. I've not had much time with the Jupiters but you already know what to expect, i'm sure. :)
In terms of support, i don't know what you're expecting from Roland, as i said previously the only thing that would concern me is the vendor specific Midi+Audio USB Driver support, but i've totally disregarded that as a feature in anticipation of it disappearing overnight, and there doesn't appear to be any obvious design flaws that i've noticed (i.e. screens dying, that kind of thing).
Re: Roland support for FA series
The Jupiter 50 ... from a sounds palette perspective ... I don't know how much more a company could offer in the way of bread and butter sounds along with fabulous recreations of analog sounds in the same board. Well, the classic pianos and electric pianos don't exactly compare with, say, Keyscape ... but you and I would know that, 99% of people who listen to our music wouldn't remotely suspect there was better out there.
There were definitely some short cuts taken on the 50 vs. the 80. And in the last few days I've started thinking about the 80, cause there still seems to be some love for the big brother.
That said, I imagine the FA is comparable sound wise to either Jupiter, although I personally like the looks of the Jupiter more than the FA, but that's just me.
I have checked out the Yammy Motif series including the MOX you had and ... while I'm tempted by the sliders and knobs, the ability to add Karma, and the integration with Cubase ... I'm like you, the overall sound doesn't flip me.
The Korg M3 from the same era I do like the sounds of and I liked interacting with it. But time has passed it by as far as support goes, and some things apparently go out on it often which doesn't seem to be the case with Roland keyboards.
I'll have to have a play on a FA-07. Only problem with that is that I live in the middle of nowhere and even when I'm somewhere it seems Guitar Center isn't stocking too many higher end 76 key and up keyboards.
There were definitely some short cuts taken on the 50 vs. the 80. And in the last few days I've started thinking about the 80, cause there still seems to be some love for the big brother.
That said, I imagine the FA is comparable sound wise to either Jupiter, although I personally like the looks of the Jupiter more than the FA, but that's just me.
I have checked out the Yammy Motif series including the MOX you had and ... while I'm tempted by the sliders and knobs, the ability to add Karma, and the integration with Cubase ... I'm like you, the overall sound doesn't flip me.
The Korg M3 from the same era I do like the sounds of and I liked interacting with it. But time has passed it by as far as support goes, and some things apparently go out on it often which doesn't seem to be the case with Roland keyboards.
I'll have to have a play on a FA-07. Only problem with that is that I live in the middle of nowhere and even when I'm somewhere it seems Guitar Center isn't stocking too many higher end 76 key and up keyboards.
-
Skijumptoes
- Posts: 681
- Joined: 11:08, 21 June 2010
Re: Roland support for FA series
100% the Jupiters look SO much better than the FA, i wish the FA had the Juno styling personally, but hey can't get caught up on that too much, it kinda looks 'nextgen' Roland, and i like the 'oldgen' :)
The Korg M3 is also a love of mine too, and i still think that stands up strong vs todays line-up, i'd have that over most Korg's released today, although i did have a play on a 88 key Korg Kross (I think they call it a 2?) in passing and that was quite nice sounding, but i wasn't expecting much from it to be fair.
And yeah that Jupiter 80 interface is lovely, But it's a whole load of money more, and not a clue how hard they are to get a good price secondhand - or if there's demand on that pushing prices.
I love the look of that single screen view for editing Supernatural Synths, but i only realised it had such a view after i'd tried one out, so i would love to go back and try and see how quick that is for real-time editing. But i get the feeling they won't be on display anymore, being discontinued. :(
One other keyboard to consider are the Kurzweil's (i.e. PC3 range), i've seen them get a lot of love from users on here but never played one myself, they look overly expensive and quite bland to me. (Hope that doesn't upset anyone).
The Korg M3 is also a love of mine too, and i still think that stands up strong vs todays line-up, i'd have that over most Korg's released today, although i did have a play on a 88 key Korg Kross (I think they call it a 2?) in passing and that was quite nice sounding, but i wasn't expecting much from it to be fair.
And yeah that Jupiter 80 interface is lovely, But it's a whole load of money more, and not a clue how hard they are to get a good price secondhand - or if there's demand on that pushing prices.
I love the look of that single screen view for editing Supernatural Synths, but i only realised it had such a view after i'd tried one out, so i would love to go back and try and see how quick that is for real-time editing. But i get the feeling they won't be on display anymore, being discontinued. :(
One other keyboard to consider are the Kurzweil's (i.e. PC3 range), i've seen them get a lot of love from users on here but never played one myself, they look overly expensive and quite bland to me. (Hope that doesn't upset anyone).
Re: Roland support for FA series
True about the Kurzweil's, I'm sure they are contenders, I just don't run into them much since the world moved away from "keyboard stores" to mainly mail order.
Regarding drivers you mentioned earlier, it is perhaps noteworthy that the Wiindows 95 driver for the classic Emagic Unitor (also called AMT something or other) MIDI interface from the 90's still works today in Win7 and maybe Win 10! Don't know if you're PC or Mac, but that's one driver that's evidently stood the test of time.
Which isn't to dismiss your concern about Roland's down-the-line driver support! btw there are plenty of laments on the Jupiter 80 forum about Roland turning its back on development.
I did notice that players seem to get around on the JP80 a lot easier than on the JP50 from watching videos. I can't say I ever wrapped my head completely around the 50 structure ... I always felt like I was fumbling around with no one to ask for help ... but the sounds were so strong I do feel I got my money's worth out of it cause I was fortunate to land a great deal on mine. JP80s apparently weren't discontinued (though not developed) till last year ... and the prices seem to be holding on these, fortunately for their owners, too bad for me.
Regarding drivers you mentioned earlier, it is perhaps noteworthy that the Wiindows 95 driver for the classic Emagic Unitor (also called AMT something or other) MIDI interface from the 90's still works today in Win7 and maybe Win 10! Don't know if you're PC or Mac, but that's one driver that's evidently stood the test of time.
Which isn't to dismiss your concern about Roland's down-the-line driver support! btw there are plenty of laments on the Jupiter 80 forum about Roland turning its back on development.
I did notice that players seem to get around on the JP80 a lot easier than on the JP50 from watching videos. I can't say I ever wrapped my head completely around the 50 structure ... I always felt like I was fumbling around with no one to ask for help ... but the sounds were so strong I do feel I got my money's worth out of it cause I was fortunate to land a great deal on mine. JP80s apparently weren't discontinued (though not developed) till last year ... and the prices seem to be holding on these, fortunately for their owners, too bad for me.