Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using USB?

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brakjoller
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Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using USB?

Post by brakjoller »

Hi,

I love my new JD-Xi that I bought for myself as a x-mas present, but I feel that sometimes I want more and bigger keys (trying to learn playing the piano on it, sometimes I feel at least one octave more would be nice).

So, all this synth and MIDI stuff being new to me, I have understood that I can control the JD-Xi perfectly fine from another MIDI-capable keyboard (aka "MIDI controller", fancy term I recently learned).

My question is now: will it work if the MIDI controller only have a USB port? The JD-Xi has one to, can then be connected in some way (using some kind of adapter then, I assume?) Or, does the MIDI controller that I want to control the Xi from have to have a proper old style MIDI out port?

If a proper MIDI out port is needed I see there are fewer options since some of the new MIDI controllers only have a USB port, and I want to be sure that I am buying the right thing (also looking for used MIDI controllers and then I cannot just choose and pick.)

Thanks!

/Mathias
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PauloF
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Re: Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using

Post by PauloF »

brakjoller wrote:Hi,

I love my new JD-Xi that I bought for myself as a x-mas present, but I feel that sometimes I want more and bigger keys (trying to learn playing the piano on it, sometimes I feel at least one octave more would be nice).

So, all this synth and MIDI stuff being new to me, I have understood that I can control the JD-Xi perfectly fine from another MIDI-capable keyboard (aka "MIDI controller", fancy term I recently learned).

My question is now: will it work if the MIDI controller only have a USB port? The JD-Xi has one to, can then be connected in some way (using some kind of adapter then, I assume?) Or, does the MIDI controller that I want to control the Xi from have to have a proper old style MIDI out port?

If a proper MIDI out port is needed I see there are fewer options since some of the new MIDI controllers only have a USB port, and I want to be sure that I am buying the right thing (also looking for used MIDI controllers and then I cannot just choose and pick.)

Thanks!

/Mathias
Welcome to the Clan brakjoller !

Both The USB ports on the JD-Xi and on all MIDI keyboard controllers are a "To Host" type, meaning that are meant to be connected to a computer.

So this means that to connect both together via USB, you will need a computer and a program that handles MIDI from/to the USB interface, like a DAW, in the middle.

On the other hand, using the "old style" 5-pin DIN ports, for any 5-Pin MIDI capable controller to be able to control your xi, you just need a simple MIDI cable, connecting the Controller's MIDI Out to xi's MIDI IN

Hope this makes sense to you,

Cheers
PauloF
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brakjoller
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Re: Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using

Post by brakjoller »

PauloF wrote: Welcome to the Clan brakjoller !
Thanks! Glad to be here :)
PauloF wrote: Both The USB ports on the JD-Xi and on all MIDI keyboard controllers are a "To Host" type, meaning that are meant to be connected to a computer.

So this means that to connect both together via USB, you will need a computer and a program that handles MIDI from/to the USB interface, like a DAW, in the middle.

On the other hand, using the "old style" 5-pin DIN ports, for any 5-Pin MIDI capable controller to be able to control your xi, you just need a simple MIDI cable, connecting the Controller's MIDI Out to xi's MIDI IN

Hope this makes sense to you,

Cheers
PauloF
It does make sense, and I think I was half-guessing that would be the answer :) Since the USB ports on most MIDI controllers seems to be of USB type B it felt strange if it would have been possible to connect two keyboards using it without a very special cable... (the other half of the guess was from the optimist inside me, thinking that perhaps there was some magic in play...)

Since I prefer not to be restricted, having to be connected to a computer to control the Xi from another keyboard, I now know that I need a real MIDI out port on the controller. This limits the number of possibilities but there seems to be enough of them out there for me to find one that suits my needs.

By the way, I'm looking for a controller that also has a decent amount of configurable knobs and buttons, such that I can control some of the parameters on the Xi that does not have their own knobs. I've seen that there are lots of stuff under the hood (in the menus) to play with, and if I can control at least a few of them from the controller, it would be fun. I hope it will be possible to combine things in this way, controlling some parameters directly on the Xi and some from the controller. Right? If I am right, this one seems to be good value for the money:

Image

(https://www.music-group.com/Categories/ ... 10/p/P0A1K)

I have checked out its manual and it even explains some basic MIDI concepts, suggesting these guys know what they are doing.

Oh, one last question if I may :) Would you guys recommend 49 or 61 keys (88 is out of the question - too big for me)? Right now I feel that the 37 keys on the Xi are enough most of the time, but for some exercises that I do, when playing both hands, I feel I lack at least one octave. And, the keys are sometimes a bit tiny, making me hit two keys at once and things like that (could be that is due to my inexperience though...)

Thanks, and thanks for the quick reply!

/Mathias
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PauloF
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Re: Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using

Post by PauloF »

brakjoller wrote: ...Since I prefer not to be restricted, having to be connected to a computer to control the Xi from another keyboard, I now know that I need a real MIDI out port on the controller. This limits the number of possibilities but there seems to be enough of them out there for me to find one that suits my needs.
There are lots of MIDI Keyboard controllers using the 5-PIN DIN connectors out there. Normally they are the high end ones but not exclusively.
brakjoller wrote: By the way, I'm looking for a controller that also has a decent amount of configurable knobs and buttons, such that I can control some of the parameters on the Xi that does not have their own knobs. I've seen that there are lots of stuff under the hood (in the menus) to play with, and if I can control at least a few of them from the controller, it would be fun. I hope it will be possible to combine things in this way, controlling some parameters directly on the Xi and some from the controller. Right? If I am right, this one seems to be good value for the money:

Image

(https://www.music-group.com/Categories/ ... 10/p/P0A1K)

I have checked out its manual and it even explains some basic MIDI concepts, suggesting these guys know what they are doing.
It seems to be a very complete controller, although if you want to be controlling the JD-Xi in more depth, maybe a controller that has SysEx capabilities would be the best one for what you want.

I can suggest for example the Roland A-PRO range that is dual channel (good for Splits/layers) and has CC and SysEx capabilities not found in many controllers these days.
This controller has Velocity and Aftertouch and a MIDI IN that can MERGE MIDI Data from other controllers/devices. A very useful feature when chaining MIDI devices.
brakjoller wrote: Oh, one last question if I may :) Would you guys recommend 49 or 61 keys (88 is out of the question - too big for me)? Right now I feel that the 37 keys on the Xi are enough most of the time, but for some exercises that I do, when playing both hands, I feel I lack at least one octave. And, the keys are sometimes a bit tiny, making me hit two keys at once and things like that (could be that is due to my inexperience though...)

Thanks, and thanks for the quick reply!

/Mathias
Definitely 61 keys !!
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rsaintjohn
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Re: Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using

Post by rsaintjohn »

One thing that would be interesting to look into (if it reflects your style of play) would be if the MIDI controller keyboard would support a split, and separate MIDI channels for them. That could be very useful for the JD-Xi in particular. That way you could assign the lower half to (for instance) Analog on Channel 4, and the upper half to Digital 1 on Channel 1. If so, you'd almost certainly want to apply that advantage through a 61-key version.
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brakjoller
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Re: Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using

Post by brakjoller »

PauloF wrote: There are lots of MIDI Keyboard controllers using the 5-PIN DIN connectors out there. Normally they are the high end ones but not exclusively.
Yes, I have begun to understand that and I should have mentioned from the beginning that I allow a quite low budget for this. I wasn't even supposed to buy something as expensive (in my world, just starting out with all this) as an Xi :) It was supposed to have been a Novation Mininova. The salesman convinced me otherwise though, and I think I made the right choice. But that set me back around 200 USD more than what I planned :-P This summer I only owned a guitar. Then, after being inspired playing on some toy keyboard at a friends house I bought a simple children's Casio keyboard for around 70 USD. And by some fluke I stumbled into the whole synth business after watching some YoutTube videos...

So, adding a MIDI controller on top on this (a term I more or less did not know about a month ago) was not according to my plans, to say the least :)

Just for the record, since I wrote this post I found an interesting alternative, a "USB host -> MIDI thing":

http://www.thomann.de/gb/kenton_midi_usb_host.htm

Seems that the development going from old skool MIDI to USB midi-only has created a demand for a thing like that. Unfortunately it is quite expensive (and strangely I see no competitors.) I have also seen one or two DIY projects that is trying to achieve the same thing. Perhaps I will try out one of those options, if only for the fun of making yet another thing on my own :) For the interested here are some links:

http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/midi-synth/usb-host-midi
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/send-midi- ... -to-5-pin/

The first of those links seems most interesting. If I understand things correctly, one would only need one of those small USB hosts, a MIDI connector and some power...
PauloF wrote: It seems to be a very complete controller, although if you want to be controlling the JD-Xi in more depth, maybe a controller that has SysEx capabilities would be the best one for what you want.
Perhaps. All this terminology is as I said new to me but I have understood as much that SysEx is needed to go beyond the basics when controlling MIDI hardware. That being said, I have checked the more technical of the Xi manuals, and from what I can understand, SysEx is not that sorely needed. But perhaps I am wrong. Here is the link to the manual in case someone wants to check it out:

http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/ ... _e01_W.pdf
PauloF wrote: I can suggest for example the Roland A-PRO range that is dual channel (good for Splits/layers) and has CC and SysEx capabilities not found in many controllers these days.
This controller has Velocity and Aftertouch and a MIDI IN that can MERGE MIDI Data from other controllers/devices. A very useful feature when chaining MIDI devices.
I've seen that, and it looks to be very competent. It's not that I cannot afford it but I feel I don't want to spent too much more than what I have already done on the Xi when I don't even know if this will become a "real" hobby or not. We'll see, perhaps it's stupid to be too cheap. From what I understand, hardware like this tend to live quite long if you take care of it properly...
PauloF wrote: Definitely 61 keys !!
Roger that! :)

Thanks for the input, appreciate it very much!

/Mathias
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brakjoller
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Re: Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using

Post by brakjoller »

rsaintjohn wrote:One thing that would be interesting to look into (if it reflects your style of play) would be if the MIDI controller keyboard would support a split, and separate MIDI channels for them. That could be very useful for the JD-Xi in particular. That way you could assign the lower half to (for instance) Analog on Channel 4, and the upper half to Digital 1 on Channel 1. If so, you'd almost certainly want to apply that advantage through a 61-key version.
There's an interesting idea, thank you! I don't even have a "style of play yet" (more than playing around with the Xi, trying sounds, knobs, playing some chords, slowly learning), so I am not sure if I would need that or not :) Learning playing keyboard from a book and watching YouTube videos (a really excellent resource!).

If I bought one of the more expensive controllers I am sure I would be able to use that for a very long time, so from that perspective perhaps it is not at all expensive.

I'm also looking for used stuff and have found a quite cheap (60 USD) MIDI controller with some knobs and stuff that I am thinking about buying just to try out the concept, so to speak. The Roland that was mentioned in another comment here is 340 USD, quite a difference. Perhap I will ask around my friends if someone can lend one to me, just so that I can try things out.

Thanks for the input!

/Mathias
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rsaintjohn
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Re: Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using

Post by rsaintjohn »

I think it's a good idea to first try to borrow or buy a low-cost controller and first test out how much you want to dig into setting up MIDI control, and how much having extra knobs to control some of the menu-buried parameters helps. But keep in mind your original goal: bigger keys, more octaves. It's easy to get carried away with all the stuff you can do as opposed to what you really want to do.

You can often get an older used digital synth (or just keyboard) that has MIDI DIN for cheaper than a new controller. I have actually used an older Casio that I got for $40 as a controller, just because it was full-size, had MIDI DIN and some other features I wanted.

I've been eyeing that Kenton adapter as well, but I've never really gotten a straight answer as to whether or not it will let me do what I want to do (avoid having my Mac in the middle). I'm also surprised their aren't more options like this. It ought to be very inexpensive and popular!

Oh, and regardless of what you do, don't worry about SysEx. The Xi supports basic MIDI CC for the most popular and useful commands (see page 17 of the Roland JD-Xi MIDI Implementation.pdf document) you'd use in a live playing/sound tweaking situation.

Once you've spent some time with a basic controller and the Xi itself, you'll know better what you want out of a more advanced and expensive solution. Good luck!
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brakjoller
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Re: Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using

Post by brakjoller »

rsaintjohn wrote:I think it's a good idea to first try to borrow or buy a low-cost controller and first test out how much you want to dig into setting up MIDI control, and how much having extra knobs to control some of the menu-buried parameters helps. But keep in mind your original goal: bigger keys, more octaves. It's easy to get carried away with all the stuff you can do as opposed to what you really want to do.
Yeah, it really is... I forgot to mention it in my original post but mentioned it in a later reply that I am also interested in being able to control more of the Xi with knobs and buttons and get rid of some menu diving (because there is quite a lot of stuff in there...) So there are actually three goals in total :)

Speaking of used stuff, I am thinking about this one as my "test":

http://www.blocket.se/goteborg/Midi_pia ... ?ca=15&w=1

That's below 60 USD. It only has 49 keys but I would feel if that extra octave and larger keys would be enough or not and it seems to have a few knobs and buttons that can be configured to send MIDI signals to the Xi as well.
rsaintjohn wrote: You can often get an older used digital synth (or just keyboard) that has MIDI DIN for cheaper than a new controller. I have actually used an older Casio that I got for $40 as a controller, just because it was full-size, had MIDI DIN and some other features I wanted.
Yes, that is also an idea, perhaps even a better one. Then I can actually play on it *without* the Xi, when I don't need all the nice sounds and stuff on it, or a sequencer :)
rsaintjohn wrote: I've been eyeing that Kenton adapter as well, but I've never really gotten a straight answer as to whether or not it will let me do what I want to do (avoid having my Mac in the middle). I'm also surprised their aren't more options like this. It ought to be very inexpensive and popular!
Just for the completeness of this thread, after I found the Kenton adapter I have actually found two more:

- https://supr.com/mode-machines/products/cerebelusb-usb/
- http://www.iconnectivity.com/iConnectMIDI2plus

The first one does exactly what I want. The latter does that and more. So it looks like perhaps things are moving a bit.
rsaintjohn wrote: Oh, and regardless of what you do, don't worry about SysEx. The Xi supports basic MIDI CC for the most popular and useful commands (see page 17 of the Roland JD-Xi MIDI Implementation.pdf document) you'd use in a live playing/sound tweaking situation.
That was kind of my impression as well but since I am new to this it was good to have the verified.
rsaintjohn wrote: Once you've spent some time with a basic controller and the Xi itself, you'll know better what you want out of a more advanced and expensive solution. Good luck!
Thanks, and thanks for the input!
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brakjoller
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Re: Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using

Post by brakjoller »

Hi again,

I though I should post back and mention that I got hold of a MIDI controller for $100. It's a Korg Kontrol 49 (https://www.google.se/search?q=korg%20kontrol%2049) and seems very competent, although it is a bit old today. But it has real MIDI out ports, even two of them. It also has plenty of controllers to play around with and 49 full-size keys. We'll see if it is enough for me. If not, I think it will be easy to sell it.

/Mathias
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PauloF
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Re: Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using

Post by PauloF »

brakjoller wrote:Hi again,

I though I should post back and mention that I got hold of a MIDI controller for $100. It's a Korg Kontrol 49 (https://www.google.se/search?q=korg%20kontrol%2049) and seems very competent, although it is a bit old today. But it has real MIDI out ports, even two of them. It also has plenty of controllers to play around with and 49 full-size keys. We'll see if it is enough for me. If not, I think it will be easy to sell it.

/Mathias
Hi Mathias,
I think you bought a good MIDI Controller for a good price. I know, it is old, but if in good shape it is a winner!
Hope it will help you with the JD-Xi
ErosiveNoise
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Re: Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using

Post by ErosiveNoise »

I think I'll buy a behringer bcr2000 to control my jd xi, more encoders and more customization.
First I just have to figure out how to configure it :)
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Re: Controlling the JD-Xi from a MIDI controller only using

Post by PauloF »

ErosiveNoise wrote:I think I'll buy a behringer bcr2000 to control my jd xi, more encoders and more customization.
First I just have to figure out how to configure it :)
The advantage of using a Keyboard controller is the obvious way to have a "normal" keyboard instead of that "mini-not-very-nice-thing" ;-)
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